Questions on M'Chek/T'Nanshi war

jeanette · Post by **jeanette** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:31 pm

I'm mostly interested in what happened when it started, because I've heard conflicting information. Perhaps the true origins are shrouded in mystery, but if not, I'd like to know:

Did M'Chek offer T'Nanshi something in return for their land? Money, other things? Or did they just say 'Hey! You have more land than you need, let our people move in!'

Did T'Nanshi make a counter offer 'No, but we'll help you with the land you do have' or was it just 'Sod off, land rapers'.

Who actually attacked first? Or do both sides teach their children that the other side attacked first?

Manuel the White · Post by **Manuel the White** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:33 pm

You mean the War of Southern Aggression?

This was *almost* the poll for he next 2 weeks but I punted it for now. Great questions, by the way...

Post by **Orleron** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:42 pm

Did M'Chek offer T'Nanshi something in return for their land? Money, other things? Or did they just say 'Hey! You have more land than you need, let our people move in!'

They tried diplomatically to get some places to settle in T'Nanshi first. They offered tribute, rent, soldiers, but T'Nanshi didn't need any of that so they refused.

Did T'Nanshi make a counter offer 'No, but we'll help you with the land you do have' or was it just 'Sod off, land rapers'.

T'Nanshi basically told them to sod off, because their main concern was the environment, which they knew beyond a doubt that the humans would abuse. They also know the humans reproduced a bit faster and reached maturity faster, so after a while there'd be a danger of having their country overrun by humans.

Who actually attacked first? Or do both sides teach their children that the other side attacked first?

Ah, therein lies the rub, eh?

Fifty · Post by **Fifty** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:10 pm

Basically the poor starving humans tried to settle lands that the elves were not using, but the heartless elves came along and slaughtered the poor humans, who only wanted to feed their families.

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:45 pm

Fifty wrote:Basically the poor starving humans tried to settle lands that the elves were not using, but the heartless elves came along and slaughtered the poor humans, who only wanted to feed their families.

That is entirely true... as Obi-Wan said, "from a certain point of view". It's also true that the greedy, shortsighted humans wanted to steal land from the elves, so that they could slaughter the animals and turn the lush forests of T'Nanshi into a wasteland like M'Chek.

Truth is a funny thing. Both sides can make "true" claims about the others that make them look pretty bad.

- Aloro

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:48 pm

Who actually attacked first? Or do both sides teach their children that the other side attacked first?

Ah, therein lies the rub, eh?

yup and both sides are too pig headed to figure out a proper solution and instead drain resources from both.

Good thing its a fantasy world otherwise there'd probably be no men left at the rate they go through them

Silk · Post by **Silk** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:00 pm

Melakin Skywieder wrote:
Who actually attacked first? Or do both sides teach their children that the other side attacked first?

Ah, therein lies the rub, eh?
yup and both sides are too pig headed to figure out a proper solution and instead drain resources from both.

Good thing its a fantasy world otherwise there'd probably be no men left at the rate they go through them

Why should the Elves give in? They're lands will be raped of resources... and then invaded further...

Why should the Humans give in? They have a huge problem and are trapped from expansion to resolve it...

---
The amount of men/elves dieing in game is actually an abstraction of the true amount. If we implemented the entire population... you wouldn't be able to move due to a)no physical space, b)2 billion millisecond lag.

Post by **Orleron** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:07 pm

Truthfully, there is one avenue that the players can pursue which would lead to a lot of increased chaos, but in the end would wind up solving the war. Which side actually wins would be up to them though.

However right now, our playerbase just hasn't been daring enough to take the steps to end this. They keep trying to make everything peaceful by shying away from conflict.... but sometimes you gotta kick a little ass to keep the peace, as was once said.

Melakin Skywieder · Post by **Melakin Skywieder** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:11 pm

The amount of men/elves dieing in game is actually an abstraction of the true amount. If we implemented the entire population... you wouldn't be able to move due to a)no physical space, b)2 billion millisecond lag.

It's your world of course and its fantasy but in a society based on rudimentary farming there is no way that it could support a large population for very long without massive famine and population collapse. Nor could the elves maintain the forests untouched with a large population.

If magic solves the problem....well then there should be no need for the war

50+ years of war could only occur if the "war" was relatively localized skirmishes without any major loss of live.

However I agree that neither side would, or could give in. I think of this more like the 100 year war between France and England, a few major battles here and there but certainly not 100 years of sustained conflict. Others may think of it differently, I'm sure those in the respective armies do.

Fire Monkey · Post by **Fire Monkey** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:29 pm

Fifty wrote:Basically the poor starving humans tried to settle lands that the elves were not using, but the heartless elves came along and slaughtered the poor humans, who only wanted to feed their families.

*writes down Fifty's name and puts it on his special list

*

Orl: Sounds totally intriguing but I don't have a frigging clue what you are talking about

. Must go and think harder on this one I think

.

Also seems like we are fighting to save our lives/T'Nanshi everyday, if thats being peaceful and keeping out of conflict I hate to see what its going to look like whn they sh*t really hits the fan

.

Xiaou · Post by **Xiaou** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:04 pm

Kind of starting to take a genocidal tone from my perspective. The nations of Tyedu, M'chek and the Kurathene lands are all predominantly human. There's enough of both humans and elves in Jechran and the seven cities to ensure that IF M'chek and T'Nanshi were the only human and elvish nations (respectively) that neither race would be wiped out even if both those nations dissappeared. However...

Jechran and the seven cities have a culture all their own and is wholly distinct from M'chek and T'Nanshi. M'chek's culture is largely drawn from the Kurathene. Even where it is culturally distinct the fact remains that there are nation alternatives for the human race to exist within. Basically, if M'chek ran out of land once, they'll do so again. M'chek may fail to prosper but their cultural identity and race won't die out if they lose.

The same can't be said necessarily for T'Nanshi. The best they can hope for if T'Nanshi falls utterly is for the remaining elves to fold themselves into a remaining civilization until they fade away into the background entirely. Many human nations. One elven nation. M'chek's victory only forestalls the inevitable, which is that they will continue to need more land. Its assumed that if M'chek tries to take more land than what they need the Equalizers of Mikon who presently fight for them will turn against them to stop their advance.

But what happens the next time they run out of land? What exactly constitutes balance in this situation? Will the forces of balance fight for a nation every time it grows too big for its borders? What makes this time in history different? Again, run out of land once, you'll run out of land again.

How do you fix that? Convince their Valokian war commanders to relinquish power in the nation by hastening an end to the war by instituting birth control education to reduce population pressure in M'chek. Oh wait, they won't do that. Nevermind.

Guess we'll just have to wait for Drotid to make their oppourtunistic attacks on T'Nanshi into a formal war declaration and draw Deglos into the conflict on T'nanshi's side. Of course, this COULD bring in Brekon into M'cheks side which could...

You get the idea.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:12 pm

there is still one possibility you left out Xi,

Just waiting on the players to decide to go for it as Orl suggested earlier.

Flakey · Post by **Flakey** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:47 pm

Vergilius wrote:there is still one possibility you left out Xi, Just waiting on the players to decide to go for it as Orl suggested earlier.

I must be stupid, because I have no idea whats left, and I think that apllies to many of the T'Nanshi army.

How can we go for something that we have no idea exsists, ic and ooc ,as an option?

Post by **Orleron** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:05 am

Any M'Chekians out there have Titanian friends?

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:34 am

Argh. Orl you bastard.

We're fighting on enough fronts and you had to go remind everyone about the... smaller... bastards... ;_;

(:p)

Bitches then. That they are. Gah.

Yeoman Syrin Aerach

Post by **Orleron** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:48 am

Or more accurately, those little bitches.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:10 am

Oh, I know there could be a very, very messy end to the war.

I was thinking more along the lines of a giant evocation spell though, the like of which the world has never seen be... oh, wait, we already did that right? *looks at the wastelands innocently*

*coughs* Yes, I do see ways of the war getting nastier, but I don't think either side is ready to resort to that yet...

Dralix · Post by **Dralix** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:12 am

Then maybe a third party needs to up the ante ...

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:20 am

I'll add that, if you don't talk to the players who dedicate their characters to the War, you're missing one of the most important perspectives. Having spent months laying the groundwork for various strategies, I'm finally seeing them start to have effect. You won't learn much of those from the boards-- though it's easy to get a mistaken impression. You'll have to go and interact in-game if you really want a piece of it.

Don't try to reduce the War to a simplistic moral equation, i.e., there is an aggresor and a defender, a good/enlightened side and a bad/unenlightened side. There's plenty of information in game and on the boards to paint a portrait thick in grays.

When I started playing a M'Chek soldier, nearly a year ago, a lot of PCs would meet my character and label him a bloodthirsty killer. Even in Mikona, for Jeebus' sake.

Much has changed. It's interesting to see other players react to Sereg being described as T'Nanshi-sponsored terrorists, and to link them to a pattern of elven disdain for what they see as a human species too short-lived to be accorded the respect they give to other kinds of life...like trees.

*gasp* Is that true? As with many conflicting positions, you can find plenty of evidence for it, if you wish.

If you want your character to develop a meaningful attitude to the War, you should go beyond whatever gut-reaction you have to war in general, and think about how it affects your character on a personal level: friends and family, local attitudes, economic incentives, philosophy and religion, and her own in-game encounters with it. Let her thoughts develop as she learns about it and/or takes part in it.

Want to start from scratch? Talk to Officer Gabwell in Mikona, and the Nanshi Woodmaster in the LeOr Inn for their respective views on the War; then start talking to folks in-game about it....

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:28 am

keikobad wrote:Don't try to reduce the War to a simplistic moral equation.

Very well said. This is part of the 'shades of gray' that Avlis is somewhat based on. It's not a question of black and white, both sides in the war have the moral high ground, and the moral low ground for that matter.

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:49 am

Orleron wrote:Truthfully, there is one avenue that the players can pursue which would lead to a lot of increased chaos, but in the end would wind up solving the war. Which side actually wins would be up to them though.

I've always had some serious ooc reservations about that approach. It seemed to me that a conflict that would pit T'Nanshi and Elysia against Mikona would place a disproportionate amount of the existing player base on one side, and continuing to refer newbies to Elysia would only exacerbate that. Plus I think it would tend to polarize the War into good/evil (again, disproportionately).

I'm sure the Team would try to compensate, but since the outcome is up to players, having most of them on one side means that they'll get to do most of the writing, regardless of the outcome.

Vroshgrak · Post by **Vroshgrak** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:01 am

*chuckles loudly* Hey Deider, I think we got some more work for you!

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:36 am

I just hope it doesn't end before I even start the book I'm planning to write on it!

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:03 am

I love the smell of backroom politics. One serious initiative to solve this peacefully unfortunately failed. Allthough I believe it would have only subdivided the war.

CBDunkerson · Post by **CBDunkerson** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:37 pm

Heh, the solution I imagined to the war would simply be for the Elves to sacrifice a small section of land in southwestern T'Nanshi... possibly concentrating their forces in the southeast to 'reclaim' some territory there at the same time.

How would this end the war?

It would give M'Chek a common border with Toran Sharda (which should also be easily accessible by ship). Vast open plains. Only lightly populated. Just what the humans need. Settlers would inevitably start flooding in to fill the 'vacuum'. It would give the humans somewhere to go OTHER than T'Nanshi.

Of course... the wemics might have something to say about that.