Hide in Plain Sight

[Vanor]

This what the SRD says...

Check: The character's Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see the character.

[Malathyre]

Hmm...I don't know if Sereg are the bastion of spell resistance or not, but might it be effective to cast either Light or Continual Flame on them/HiPS users to make them easier to spot? Light, being a cantrip, is known to many, many, many different casters. Some items even allow it to be cast. Continual Flame is a pretty innocuous spell that could use more interesting purposes.

These questions are born out of ignorance, I have never fought a Sereg or someone else with HiPS, but these seem like a good starting point.

[Bear]

A Spot check result of greater than 20 can generally let the character become aware of an invisible creature near the character (though the character can't actually see it).

could this be what you are refering to?

Nope, it's in the DMG. There is a little table that lists out the various factors that influence a spot check -- both + and -.

For instance, the size of your creature is supposed to influence a spot check up and down.

The darkness in an area is supposed to influence a spot check up and down.

At the start of the table it notes that the base dc to spot a hidden creature is 20.

I don't think my DM ever played by the rule...so maybe it's just one of those rules that gets overlooked or ignored.

*shrugs*

Bear

[_LuCkY_]

Hmm...I don't know if Sereg are the bastion of spell resistance or not, but might it be effective to cast either Light or Continual Flame on them/HiPS users to make them easier to spot? Light, being a cantrip, is known to many, many, many different casters. Some items even allow it to be cast. Continual Flame is a pretty innocuous spell that could use more interesting purposes.

These questions are born out of ignorance, I have never fought a Sereg or someone else with HiPS, but these seem like a good starting point.

Actually I think I've read somewhere (in the tips NWN displays when loading screens if I remember correctly) that items that emit light give you a stealth bonus because you can see better where you walk...

[Vanor]

that items that emit light give you a stealth bonus because you can see better where you walk...

This was extensively tested by Timo some time ago, and he found that light sources made it harder to stay hiden.

[Vergilius]

A Spot check result of greater than 20 can generally let the character become aware of an invisible creature near the character (though the character can't actually see it).

could this be what you are refering to?

Nope, it's in the DMG. There is a little table that lists out the various factors that influence a spot check -- both + and -.

For instance, the size of your creature is supposed to influence a spot check up and down.

The darkness in an area is supposed to influence a spot check up and down.

At the start of the table it notes that the base dc to spot a hidden creature is 20.

I don't think my DM ever played by the rule...so maybe it's just one of those rules that gets overlooked or ignored.

*shrugs*

Bear

I think I know what chart you're referring to, lots of small factors go into whether one can hide or not. Lots of these factors are taken into account by the game engine such as distance to target increasing the DC, light in the area increasing the DC, items emting light increasing the DC, etc. I'll be curious to look this over as I can't think of a good reason hiding character should have a +20 extra other than to make it impossible for their corresponding detectors to see them. in 5 of 6 hours when you get back, I'd be apprecitive to get the page number.

[Furin]

Hmm...I don't know if Sereg are the bastion of spell resistance or not, but might it be effective to cast either Light or Continual Flame on them/HiPS users to make them easier to spot? Light, being a cantrip, is known to many, many, many different casters. Some items even allow it to be cast. Continual Flame is a pretty innocuous spell that could use more interesting purposes.

These questions are born out of ignorance, I have never fought a Sereg or someone else with HiPS, but these seem like a good starting point.

Actually I think I've read somewhere (in the tips NWN displays when loading screens if I remember correctly) that items that emit light give you a stealth bonus because you can see better where you walk...

No, this is just the result of boneheaded writing by Bioware. The text is something like, "...but low light may provide a bonus [to your Hide check]." What it means is, "...but the absence of strong light may provide a bonus."

We had some fun with that particular choice of words a while back (somewhere in these boards).

[Titanium Dragon]

Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of those who might see you.

[Bear]

Page 60 DMG

If creatures are trying not to be seen, it's usually harder to spot them, but creatures that are keeping low to avoid being spoted also are less likely to notice other creauture. If creatures are hiding they can only move at half their normal overland speed. They also suffer a -2 penalty on their own spot checks to notice other creatures because they are staying low and using cover.

Instead of a base DC 20 for other to spot them at the standard spotting distance, the DC is 25+ the hider's Hide skill modifier.....

Table 3-2 Spotting Difficulty
Circumstances DC
Base 20
Size +/- 4 per size category
Contrast +/- 5 or more
Stillness (not moving) +5
Six or more creatures -2
Moonlight +5 *
Starlight +10 **
Total Darkness Impossible ***

*+5 bonus on spot check of the spotter has low-light vision or if he or she has darkvision that extends far enough.
** +5 bonus on Spot check if the spotter has low light vision or +10 if he or she has darkvision that extends far engouh.
*** Unless the spotter has darvision that extends far enough

On reflection, I think this has to do with placing encounters and at what range do you see something in the woods. If you are up close, then I think you apply the normal Spot check opposed by hider's hide check....

Still....none of these rules are in NWN. At least as far as I've noticed.

Bear

[Titanium Dragon]

Yes, that is from the section on encounters and when two groups become aware of each other, not about actually sneaking past people.

[tindertwiggy]

You are just being ridiculous now. A character with high spot can see a HIPS player. I know from expereince. There are area effect spells and other means of dealing with this including a potion know as invisibility. Perhaps if people are worried about this they should spen some more points on spot. To build a fighter/rogue/shadow dancer like you suggest would take quite some time and not as effective as you want us to believe.

Please....lets let this horse rest in peace.

*takes his favorite egoistic full of vanity look*

You are lucky I have no time to develop a character like that to prove you the effectiveness!

My character is a Fighter/Rogue and now Shadow Dancer.

IF there is such a problem with this then can someone, anyone, step forward and name an instant when I have abused the system. Or if fact when any long standing player has abused this.

If there are no instances of the above then why is this still going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...

Live with it!

Because people need something to argue inane opinions over. An "I'm righter contest."

I stopped reading this on page 2 or so.

Fact: HiPS is not implemented perfectly.
Fact: There are many different opinions of what is a perfect implementation.
Fact: The team has discussed this already.
Fact: We may or may not act on the discussion we had. I and just about everyone else is loathe to devote resources to a largely cvc problem. Especially when we have so much other rp-centric stuff to implement.

If you want it changed: Learn to code WELL. Put in an app. I wish you luck in dealing with it.

*Thread locked in the interest of horse corpses everywhere*

[tindertwiggy]

Oh and if anyone can figure out how to clone Aloro, Sylvan, Mistcaller, Jordicus, Terryrayc, Pap, Arandil, and anyone else I am forgetting, please pm me immediately.

Also we need area builders. Sili recently went into retirement (thanks so much for all the great work dude), and losing him was like losing a crack team of two dozen highly trained area building monkeys.

[Aloro]

I was asked to post this (from an email exchange with a player who wrote to staff@avlis.org), so here goes:

***

I'd like to say a few brief words about this subject.

While some players (and it is a very very small fraction of the people who post on the forums, which is in turn a small fraction of the people who play on Avlis) do have strong feelings about this subject, there are many other players who disagree with the views you have expressed about HiPS. More importantly, the Team does not make changes based solely on how loudly a group of people complains about something, nor do we make changes based on a democratic vote system, most especially when the changes proposed are based strongly on CvC class balance.

While we will continue to change some things to better suit the Vision(tm) of how Avlis should evolve, there will always be times when some people will speak up loudly for a change like this that simply might never be forthcoming. We do listen to players' comments, and we take them into consideration, but at the same time we are following a general course of development that has already been mapped out for Avlis, and with which we are happy. This Vision(tm) has thus far served to make a fabulous world, and we feel it serves the needs of the player population as a whole much better than catering to the interests of a vocal minority, even when that minority is very vocal, and even when they have well-constructed arguments.

I am not saying you are being ignored, or that we don't respect your opinions - simply that it is not possible to please everyone, and instead of trying to, we are working to manifest a type of world that we feel meets the needs of our community overall and will provide the best overall gaming experience for everyone.

A few more brief thoughts:

D&D is not and probably never CAN be class-balanced. In Avlis, this is not a concern of ours. We are more concerned with the depth and vibrancy of the roleplaying than with how well one class fares against another in CvC, or with how efficiently one class can kill a certain type of monster. We will continue to make adjustments at times to various classes, spells, skills, feats, etc. but these are always based on pursuit of the Vision(tm) and not based on class balance.

I personally regret that this issue has so polarized some members of the community, but I entreat you to step back and see how many people are actually complaining about HiPS and what the basis of their complaints is. We have looked into this, and continue to look into it, but becoming more adamant and insisting we change something isn't honestly going to help it happen. Should we decide that changing HiPS or otherwise modifying the Shadowdancer class is in accord with the Vision(tm), we will do so, and not otherwise.

- Aloro