true seeing on avlis

Halvar Yanocen · Post by **Halvar Yanocen** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:56 pm

When my low lvl cleric cast true seeing he get a bonus of +30 to his spot check. This means that it will take an epic rouge to hide from him. Is this intended?

From the players handbook:

True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.

Gorgon · Post by **Gorgon** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:06 pm

That does sound high but you don't have to be epic to do it. I can get a hide of 57 right now and I'm only 11th. There are items that help.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:40 pm

Halvar Yanocen wrote:When my low lvl cleric cast true seeing he get a bonus of +30 to his spot check. This means that it will take an epic rouge to hide from him. Is this intended?

Yes.

As it was, TS could see any rogue in stealth mode. Not supposed to be like that. Now a rogue with a crap load of points in MS/HS can get past someone with TS.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:41 pm

Halvar Yanocen wrote:When my low lvl cleric cast true seeing he get a bonus of +30 to his spot check. This means that it will take an epic rouge to hide from him. Is this intended?

Yes.

As it was, TS could see any rogue in stealth mode. Not supposed to be like that. Now a rogue with a crap load of points in MS/HS can get past someone with TS.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:00 pm

I had people sneaking by me right and left in the tunnels, with my true seeing up. So don't get discouraged, someday you too will be able to taunt a Toranite through tells when you slip by unnoticed.

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:18 pm

Halvar Yanocen wrote:When my low lvl cleric cast true seeing he get a bonus of +30 to his spot check. This means that it will take an epic rouge to hide from him. Is this intended?

From the players handbook:
True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.

That's weird. I was made to believe the bonus was casterlevel*2. Is this changed? Can anyone confirm/refute this?

M.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:50 pm

Sand (wizard... *cough*warlock) gets caster level * 2.
Clerics will get their Wis bonus too..

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:57 pm

Khaelindra wrote: That's weird. I was made to believe the bonus was casterlevel*2. Is this changed? Can anyone confirm/refute this?

M.

Yeah, Kharak gets a spot of 36. 16*2+4 (wis bonus)

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:08 pm

I'll have to double check, but I believe there was a minimum and then casterlevel*2 was applied beyond the minimum...

and overcoming a Spot of 30 is not really that hard..

Halvar Yanocen · Post by **Halvar Yanocen** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:40 pm

My char is a lvl 6 cleric and lvl 3 rouge (using a ring of holyness). My normal spot is 6 and with true seeing its 36. For as spell that isn't supposed to give any spot bonus I would still argue that 30 is very high, regardless of how easy some of you seem to think it is to beat.

And while I'm at it

Another quote from the players hand book

..., the subject can focus her vision into the Etherreal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces).

Since Greater Sanctuary is supposed to turn you etherreal this would mean that a person with true seeing would be able to see you.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:55 pm

since Bioware screwed up the Greater Sanctuary spell, there is nothing we can do to correct how True Seeing and/or See Invisibity affects it.

as to True Seeing now, if you want, we can put it back so that it sees Hidden PCs 100% of the time....

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:05 pm

I personally think this spell is still in need of some adjustment. After living with the revised spell for about 2-3 months, I thought I would share my feedback. If you consider this a dead-horse ? Fine, don?t read on. I won?t twist your arm. This feedback is not, however, a simple whiny post. It consists of some simple facts re true-seeing, my findings, and some recommendations for change.

Facts:

Fact #1: I understand that true seeing grants the following effects: Ultravision, See Illusions, See Invisibility, and a bonus to spot of x2 player level. Hence a 12th level caster will have a +24 bonus to spot from the spell alone (although it may be higher according to this first post). A 20th level caster will receive a +40 bonus from the spell. This does not include any extra bonuses from wisdom, ranks in spot, or items.

Fact #2: A 20th level rogue with maxed hide will have a bonus of +23 via ranks. This is less than the spot bonus a 12th level caster receives from true seeing.

Fact #3: The PnP version of true seeing spell does not grant any bonus to spot.

Fact #4: The bonus was allowed to remain in Avlis (IIRC) to compensate for the lack of +spot items in the game when balanced against the number of +hide items in the game. However, the number of high +hide items have drastically decreased since the time the spell was changed. +10 Elven cloaks can no longer be purchased from merchants in Avlis, and are only available through dm quests or by trading high level items. The highest + hide item I can buy in Avlis from a merchant is about +3.

Fact #5: The bonus was also added to balance against undetectable pick-pocketers. However, I have not heard any issue with pick-pocketers in Avlis for many many months. The rules are fairly clear and followed in terms of what is griefing, and what is acceptable.

Findings:
I believe the spell is still imbalanced. I do not believe this level of imbalance was intended when the spell was modified. As currently scripted, true seeing gives a 20th level rogue with uber-gear (not available in Avlis) only a 35% chance of staying hidden against a cleric with crappy gear and who takes the time to put skill points into spot

Take for example, a 20th level Rogue with superior Items (not currently available in Avlis):
Hide +23 bonus
Dex bonus: +10 (This is what mine is at 20th level w/items)
Cloak of Elvenkind (no longer available): +10 bonus
Robe of Blending (from Rockhome) +15 bonus
Die Roll: +1-20
Total: 59-79

Now compare against a 20th level cleric with ?crappy? items (all of which are available in Avlis):
Spot: +12 bonus (cross class skill)
Wis: +10 bonus (Assume comparable with Spells and Items)
Helm of Light: +5 bonus
Amulet of Light: +4 bonus
Die Roll: +1-20 bonus
True Seeing: +40 bonus
Total: 72 ? 91 (35%chance)

The results show that any cleric with crappy items will spot an equal level rogue about 2/3rds of the time. Now I ask?doesn?t that seem a bit odd? First, whoever said clerics were supposed to be the end-all-be-all of spotting? I thought this task was filled by rogues, and rangers in PnP? Also, where is the fun in hiding when you know that you will be spotted about 2/3rds of the time by an equal level cleric?

Ok, without getting into this any further, I did not come to the plate empty-handed. I want to make the world a better?.more enjoyable place?.so I will propose some recommendations:

#1 Remove spot bonus from true-seeing, and add items into the game that give higher spot bonuses. If the reason to grant true-seeing a bonus to spot was to accommodate for the lack of these items, isn?t the simple solution to add these items into the game? This would give any character (not just casters) a good shot of spotting those who are hidden.

#2 If this is not acceptable, I recommend that we reduce the true-seeing bonus to ? the max hide bonus a rogue of the same level receives through ranks. Thus, a 20th level caster would receive a +12 bonus to spot, not +40. Even in this scenario, a cleric with crappy items who has though spot important enough to put skill points into it will still spot an equal level rogue with Superior items about a 50% of the time.

#3 If this is not acceptable, I recommend we reduce the true seeing bonus to no higher than the max hide bonus a rogue of the same level receives through ranks. Thus, a 20th level caster will receive a +23 bonus to spot through the spell alone?.the same bonus a rogue gets by spending skill points. Combined with full ranks in spot, the cleric will still have a whopping +35 bonus! In this scenario, a cleric with crappy items will still spot an equal level rogue with superior items about 50% of the time.

#4 Combo-Package ? Adjust spot bonus down from TS and add more spot + items into the game.

That?s it. Although we sincerely appreciate the changes you already made to the spell, I think it is still in need of some adjustment. ?.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Bear

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:14 pm

Helm of Light... Amulet of Light, what are those, and why do you assume that clerics are using them? I do not think there are many clerics out there regularly wearing items that increase their spot. You also assume the clerics are dumping 24 skill points into their Spot skill in order to max out a cross class skill.

When you put both assumptions together, I cannot see how that reflects the typical scenario at all.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:15 pm

Partly to add to your opinion, maybe for the cost of removing spot bonuses from true-seeing, increase the duration of Clairvoyance/Clairaudience? Something like a minute/level.

1 round/level is a bit short for something when spells like camoflage/one with the land adds +10 to hide for 1 hour/level.

The problem with your reasoning Bear, is that it only considers rogues vs casters, without consideration for the fact that rogues are in fact not the stealthiest ones after the SoU ranger spells.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:23 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:Helm of Light... Amulet of Light, what are those, and why do you assume that clerics are using them? I do not think there are many clerics out there regularly wearing items that increase their spot.

Helm available in little bar NE of Mikona
Amulet avaiable from merchant in Le'Or.

I made the assumption that both rogues and clerics would wear specialty items. Under the above scenario rogues are wearing robes with no AC whatsoever... The cloak is also only good for hiding, and nothing else.... Rogues must take various penalties to wear these items. I assumed it was therefore fair to say that clerics and casters would need to take similar penalties... Point being, if you want to spot. If that's important to you... the items are there.

FunkOdyssey wrote:You also assume the clerics are dumping 24 skill points into their Spot skill in order to max out a cross class skill.

Again...if spotting is important to you...I assume you will put the skill points into it. If it's not important to you....then they shouldn't need the spell to act as a crutch.... especially a spell that has no true basis in DnD.

Remember when we changed the "lighting" effects on all the spells? This change was based on two facts: (1) it wasn't in PnP; and (2) it was unfair to casters b/c everyone would know which spells you had up. Shouldn't we continue to consider adjustments here b/c: (1) it's not in PnP; and (2) it's unfair to rogues?

My opinion,

Bear

Vipact · Post by **Vipact** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:03 pm

Just a sidenote from my experiences being a high level panzy. I could be wrong; however, I believe the spot bonuses from True Seeing and spot bonuses from items do NOT stack.

~ Vip.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:07 pm

They stack.

Just saying, give the spells that are SUPPOSED to give bonuses vs hiding rogues more punch.

Amplify and Clairaudience would be a much better deterrent if they lasted for more than 30 seconds.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:28 pm

Does the spot bonus top out at level 20 like it does for most spells? Otherwise that would just be obscene.

And by the way, 1 round/level = 2 minutes for a level 20 caster, 1 minute for a level 10 one.

I personally think the spot bonus should go bye bye and True Seeing should just give immunity to illusions. That seems pretty balanced, as that is effectively what it does in PnP AFAIK.

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:31 pm

Clerics don't generally put any points into Spot. They only have 2 skill points per level, and these generally go into Concentration, Heal, and Spellcraft. Hey, that's 3 skills, and only 2 skill points... not much leftover there.

No caster I know of uses items to boost their Spot.

Almost every stealthy rogue I know has multiple pieces of Hide gear. No, sorry, make that EVERY stealthy rogue I know.

High Dex rogues are likely to favor clothing over armor anyhow, so they can use their full Dex bonus. How is wearing clothing to boost their Hide skill a significant penalty? Clerics are likely to wear Periapts of Wisdom (for more spells and a higher spell DC). They're incredibly unlikely to wear an Amulet of Light. So this item for rogues is commonly used because it gives an advantage and costs little to no mechanical power loss, while the item for clerics is unlikely to ever be worn because it causes direct mechanical power loss in their area of greatest focus. Moreover, switching out a Periapt of Wisdom causes the bonus spells to be forgotten and removed from your spell lists, so clerics would never swap such items in and out.

If we're going to compare only the worst-case scenarios (casters with skill points they're not likely to spend and gear they're not likely to own), I think we get a skewed view of how True Seeing and Hide interact.

How about a real-life example comparing a 21st level cleric and 20th level rogue/shadowdancer?

Cha'reth's Spot has never been above +53. Val's Hide can get up to +68 with the equipment he has now (you didn't mention Camoflauge

). With Epic Skill Focus, Val's Hide might shortly be +79.

Sure, this is a top-end comparison, but it's at least a realistic one, based on actual existing characters, their current equipment, and their development plans.

- Aloro

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:45 pm

I sympathize with Bear, however I think the system is more or less working as it should, for the following reasons:

1. NWN Hide doesn't have the limitations that PnP Hide would. In PnP, you need something to hide in: shadows, people, etc. In NWN, you can hide and walk right up to a group of trolls in a wide open, grassy field on a sunny day and slip a knife in their back when your party is finally ready. You can hide in a room of people without it mattering that everyone in that room is looking for you. The DC doesn't take anything but area lighting and the opponent spot check into consideration.

Ergo, if a rogue's hide skill is just good enough to beat a sharp eye's spot for a few seconds, the rogue won't be tempted to stroll up and down the street, but will seek out shadows for the bonus and probably get away fast from anyone who might be looking for them. Mikona, with the dark alleys and many trapdoors to the rogue tunnels, is perfectly designed for this.

2. There's a new shadowdancer every day, and HiPS poses some questions (I don't know how the PnP skill works). Can you really hide anywhere, no matter how many people are watching, what you're wearing, or how little cover there is? If the skill is magical, aren't there magical means of countering it?

3. PnP Spellcasters have the power to discover people hiding, through the various detect, locate, communing, and scrying spells. They wouldn't necessarily notice somone sneaking up to them, but once they knew someone was trying they could find them. A bonus to Spot from TS doesn't match this perfectly, but you can think of it as an approximation, just as the NWN Hide is of the PnP Hide.

4. There is armor in LeOr with a +5 Hide bonus. There are also cloaks, boots and belts with a +2 bonus. Wearing all you would have a +11 bonus from storebought gear. I've seen rings and other items with a hide bonus, but I'm not sure if they're storebought.

If a CoPaP world makes good hide gear (now I know where that Robe of Blending is from), it will circulate. Your 20th level rogue has that item, but so did a 6th level ranger of Skern. That's not really a problem, if the item conforms to CoPaP standards (and I think this one does)-- but it means that you shouldn't base your calculations solely on current Avlis merchant items.

~~~~

The current system makes hiding vs PCs very difficult for a rogue without gear, which I imagine was the intention of the Team. Rogues, rangers, & co. in one of the established guilds seem to get superior Hide gear very quickly, and as these are established roleplayers, they don't raise any issues about pickpocketing abuse.

My experience as a high-WIS lvl 14 cleric who uses TS when on duty is that higher-lvl rogues and rangers have no trouble beating my Spot check. HOWEVER, I have other ways of sniffing them out (perfectly legal, I assure you), but I'm probably being a bit more creative about that than the average player. If the TS bonus were taken away, I'd start clamoring for higher Spot gear to compensate for the superior gear that my opponents are wearing.

That said, I could wish for some changes:

a) Rogues should get a bonus for hiding in interior or urban areas, much like rangers and druids get in outdoor areas. This could be added as an extra feat to their creature hide, but would probably take a hakpak?

b) It would be nice to lower the impact that gear has on Stealth, and then lower the Spot bonus on TS accordingly. I'm not sure if CoPaP has guidelines for +Skill items, or limits on which items could have them (so that you don't end up getting + 10 Hide boots, cloaks, rings, and belts all from different worlds)-- probably a question for the CoPaP forums.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:10 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:Does the spot bonus top out at level 20 like it does for most spells? Otherwise that would just be obscene.

Nope. 20th level caster has +40 bonus. 25th level caster has +50 bonus, etc, etc, etc.

Aloro wrote:Clerics don't generally put any points into Spot. They only have 2 skill points per level, and these generally go into Concentration, Heal, and Spellcraft. Hey, that's 3 skills, and only 2 skill points... not much leftover there.

I?m surprised to see ya jump in here buddy. In any event, as I mentioned, if spot is important to you then you should put skills points into it. If it?s not that important, then you have to rely on a crutch to fix the problem.

Aloro wrote:No caster I know of uses items to boost their Spot.

They should. The items are out there. And in fact, I recommend there be more items? Why don?t torches give you a spot bonus? Why not a staff with twinkling lights on the end that gives a spot bonus? Why not some robes that give a spot bonus? Then?when you are worried about rogues sneaking about (not just standing around talking) you can switch into these items so that you would have a decent chance of spotting one. As it is, casters can keep the spell up 24 hours a day? they don?t need to make any accommodations?don?t need to switch any gear?.they can simply walk everywhere with uber-spot.

Aloro wrote: How about a real-life example comparing a 21st level cleric and 20th level rogue/shadowdancer?

Ok?let?s use this example. When?if ever?.have you ever not seen Val when you have TS up? I cannot remember a single instance?.ever. Through 20 levels of playing our characters?Char has always, always, always been able to spot Val. During the year + that we have been playing this game, there may have been one occasion, but honestly?. I can?t remember it (forgive my memory

).

The real life, is that even though Val has gear that is not from Avlis or no longer available in Avlis, he gets spotted by a caster with absolutely zero spot gear with near 100% probability. Now?.think about all the folks without the same quality gear. Eventually people will come up the ranks and not have the same stuff that I?ve garnered over my time here. They will really be SOL.

Anyways, thanks for listening and treating this as a serious issue instead of simply saying it?s already been discussed and resolved. I sincerely appreciate that.

Bear

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:20 pm

Aloro wrote:Clerics don't generally put any points into Spot. They only have 2 skill points per level, and these generally go into Concentration, Heal, and Spellcraft. Hey, that's 3 skills, and only 2 skill points... not much leftover there.

No caster I know of uses items to boost their Spot.

Almost every stealthy rogue I know has multiple pieces of Hide gear. No, sorry, make that EVERY stealthy rogue I know.

High Dex rogues are likely to favor clothing over armor anyhow, so they can use their full Dex bonus. How is wearing clothing to boost their Hide skill a significant penalty? Clerics are likely to wear Periapts of Wisdom (for more spells and a higher spell DC). They're incredibly unlikely to wear an Amulet of Light. So this item for rogues is commonly used because it gives an advantage and costs little to no mechanical power loss, while the item for clerics is unlikely to ever be worn because it causes direct mechanical power loss in their area of greatest focus. Moreover, switching out a Periapt of Wisdom causes the bonus spells to be forgotten and removed from your spell lists, so clerics would never swap such items in and out.

If we're going to compare only the worst-case scenarios (casters with skill points they're not likely to spend and gear they're not likely to own), I think we get a skewed view of how True Seeing and Hide interact.

How about a real-life example comparing a 21st level cleric and 20th level rogue/shadowdancer?

Cha'reth's Spot has never been above +53. Val's Hide can get up to +68 with the equipment he has now (you didn't mention Camoflauge ). With Epic Skill Focus, Val's Hide might shortly be +79.

Sure, this is a top-end comparison, but it's at least a realistic one, based on actual existing characters, their current equipment, and their development plans.

- Aloro

So you're saying clerics should be able to do everything?

The advantage of rogues is that they get LOADS of skill points. Clerics theoretically can boost things temporarily, but not permanantly. If the turns VS hours in NWN was correct, true seeing cast by a level 20 character would last 3 hours, 20 minutes, which, in real time, is 6 minutes 40 seconds. This is balance. However, right now it lasts 20 minutes - longer than between rest periods.

Giving clerics an obscene bonus to spot gives them essentially an extra 2 skill points a level, which is kinda stupid.

You want to be good at spotting, then devote skill points to it. What? You mean you can't take every skill and feat you'd like at once? Every other class suffers the same limitations, and has to choose to make sacrifices. Sh'lieulias puts some skill points in tumble, which means he isn't as good at some other things as he could be (though it isn't that much of a problem with him). Sure, I'd like Vence to be a specialist in the Greatsword and the Longbow as well as the bastard sword, but I don't have that many feat slots.

Arguing that an inherent disadvantage of a class is wrong is a bit rediculous.

On the flipside, as Keikobad said, in NWN hiding is much easier than it should be. You can hide in certain rediculous situations.

However, it should be rogues and rangers who are good at sniffing out hiders, NOT clerics. You could argue that NWN is weak on divination spells, and I think that some should be added. However, diviniation spells usually can't find people perfectally, and the ones that do take away your concentration from the real world and are high level, and last for a very short period of time, not effectively permanently.

Per CoPaP rules, things better than +1 enhancement should not be buyable. For skills, that is multiplied by 3, to +3. If this was followed, then it wouldn't matter quite so much.

I do think there should be a few items that boost spot/listen (not many, but a few). There already are, really; however, there are far more hide/move silently bonus items, and they are worlds better. A person who devotes a great deal to spot/listen should have a reasonable chance to spot someone who devotes the same amount to hide/move silently, and should have realtively equivalent aiding equipment. There might be a few more hide/MS bonus items (boots & armor aiding move silently, armor & cloak for hide, versus just helmets for spot/listen), which gives a slight advantage to the stealth character.

Basically, what I see here is this:

Clerics: We should be able to see anything!
Rogues/Rangers: Why the heck can you see us? Why do you get to trump our main advantage?

That is essentially the argument I see here, and EVERY time this debate is rehashed. Those with TS defend it; those who lose out from it attack it. Its kinda stupid really.

I'd rather have immunity:illusions than +40 spot anyway, and that is more what it should be like. +40 spot you can claim doesn't make that much of a difference... but lets face it. You're a level 20 cleric, put NOTHING into spot, and you can spot any rogue without really uber equipment.

Lets look at a level 10 example.

Sample rogue with CoPaP standard equipment, level 10:
13 + 4 (skill focus) + 3 (armor with hide bonus) + 3 (cloak with hide bonus) + 5 (dex bonus) = 28 hide/move silently

Level 10 cleric with CoPaP standard equipment and true seeing, level 10:
20 (true seeing) + 6 (wis bonus with owl's wisdom) + 3 (helmet of spot bonus) + 3 (amulet that gives spot bonus) = 32 spot/listen

Even with a potion of camoflauge (which costs the rogue money and only lasts for a very short time (less than true seeing), the rogue only is winning out by 7. The rogue has devoted a feat and skill points to it, but the cleric will normally beat them by 4; that means that the rogue has about a 6 in 20 chance of beating the cleric on hide per round, or 3 in 10 - 30% chance in the first 6 seconds. Chance of lasting two rounds: 9%. Chance of not being seen for 3 rounds: 2.7%. The chance of you not being spotted within 30 seconds is 1%. Even with a potion of camoflauage and of cat's grace, the rogue would be beating the cleric by 7, so there is only a 4 in 20 chance that the cleric will spot them (roughly). Thus, a 20% chance per round, or an 80% chance of not being spotted. Second round, 64% chance rogue is still in the clear. Third round: 51.2%. Fourth: 41.9%. Fifth: 32.8%, or less than 1 in 3 chance. It cost the rogue 500 gold to have a 1 in 3 chance not to be spotted in the first 5 rounds.

Now, lets say the cleric has NO spot boosting equipment at all. This would drop their skill to 26. A rogue who spends 300 gold on a potion could sneak by the cleric, once. That seems reasonable to me. However, a rogue/ranger would actually be worse at spotting than the cleric! And given that spellcasters who can cast true seeing keep it up 24/7 (at least in my experience; I stand talking to them, and in the middle of a conversation they'll cast the spell again, sometimes twice if the conversation is long enough) the rogues/rangers are losing out on class skills to clerics, sorcerers, and wizards. Why take a rogue or ranger along when you can already do it all with a cleric?

Already clerics trump fighters at fighting. Do they really need to be the best class at everything possible?

This is coming from the player of Vence, a fighter, and Sh'lieulias, a wizard. Is it stupid that I am complaining? Probably, as it is most likely that no one cares. But I do see it as a bit silly.

EDIT: Bear posted, and I think my above post may be a little harsh. But I hope I'm getting my point across. I don't think that clerics (and wizards, and sorcerers) should be able to automatically trump the hide skill, as really, it should be their main weakness. Attack one without that, and chances are you will be pounded. But attacking a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer in an ambush is the way you are supposed to be able to win. And that just can't happen when they pretty much always spot you with no expenditure of skill points or feats, while the rogues are maxing them out and taking all the equipment they can.

Chasman · Post by **Chasman** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:23 pm

Has anyone thought to use some common sense when using Truesight and you "see" a known Rogue (Or anyone, for that matter)?

What I do is make a judgement call when this happens. I look at where he is, how fast he is moving,etc...

If he's in the middle of the road, then I say toughshit, I could see him. If he's slinking around the edge of a building, I then ignore him. It's not perfect, but it beats not trying to work within the game limitations.

Could this be one of those areas where we should use examine to see what the other player is doing ?

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:32 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:Even with a potion of camoflauge (which costs the rogue money and only lasts for a very short time (less than true seeing), the rogue only is winning out by 7. The rogue has devoted a feat and skill points to it, but the cleric will normally beat them by 4; that means that the rogue has about a 6 in 20 chance of beating the cleric on hide per round, or 3 in 10 - 30% chance in the first 6 seconds. Chance of lasting two rounds: 9%. Chance of not being seen for 3 rounds: 2.7%. The chance of you not being spotted within 30 seconds is 1%. Even with a potion of camoflauage and of cat's grace, the rogue would be beating the cleric by 7, so there is only a 4 in 20 chance that the cleric will spot them (roughly). Thus, a 20% chance per round, or an 80% chance of not being spotted. Second round, 64% chance rogue is still in the clear. Third round: 51.2%. Fourth: 41.9%. Fifth: 32.8%, or less than 1 in 3 chance. It cost the rogue 500 gold to have a 1 in 3 chance not to be spotted in the first 5 rounds.

Mind numb....too much math....must eat jelly dougnut.... Dude, you the man...it took me like 2 fucking days to figure out my math

.

Bear

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:50 pm

TD,

1. Time is distorted in NWN for all classes, both for the cleric with TS and for the rogue Hiding and standing next to him for, as you point out, hours on end.

2. As I said before, both TS and Hide are only approximations of the actual powers both classes have. It's not unreasonable (though not ideal) that a rogue should only expect to hide for a few moments from an equal-level spellcaster looking for him. A higher-level rogue should, and does, have an easier time against a lower-level spellcaster. Hide used properly means moving away or striking fast, not staying next to that person for a whole turn. You have to be incredibly better than the person you're trying to beat to stay next to them for turns on end.

The system as is does this. I cannot spot higher level rogues with TS. Rogues near my level will get spotted if they hang around too long.

3. You're ignoring that higher-level rogues get plenty of superior gear not available in stores from their guilds and DM quests.

I wanted to turn Jake into a stealth character, if not a shadowdancer, very badly. My old mentor in the Army, Drake, was a master at sneaking, and many of our missions involved it. I would like to take his place doing so, but the Army doesn't give out superior stealth gear so...scratch that. If the impact of gear on the skill were lowered, however, I'd be all over it.

The World of Avlis

true seeing on avlis

true seeing on avlis

Re: true seeing on avlis

Re: true seeing on avlis

Re: true seeing on avlis

Re: true seeing on avlis