Worshippers and Alignment
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Worshippers and Alignment
Does a character have to be a certain alignment to worship a god?
eg.
Dru'El is the god of elves.
Dru'El's worshippers alignment must be "any good."
Can a sadistic, nationalist, lawful evil elf still worship Dru'El?
ie. They do evil things in the name of the elven people.
eg.
Dru'El is the god of elves.
Dru'El's worshippers alignment must be "any good."
Can a sadistic, nationalist, lawful evil elf still worship Dru'El?
ie. They do evil things in the name of the elven people.
- maxinion
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No, in my eyes. My eyes are blind though, so it doesn't mean much. Wait for a DM to say something. This is to tide you over.
Dru'el implies good, as well as elves. The deity descriptions say what alignment a worshipper can be. Dru'el, like you said, is any good. That means you can be CG, NG, or LG, but nothing else. Several gods have any alignment (Mikon, I think Andagar) for their worshippers. Dru'els domains probably include some sort of 'good' as well, so I doubt an evil worshipper makes much sense.
Dru'el implies good, as well as elves. The deity descriptions say what alignment a worshipper can be. Dru'el, like you said, is any good. That means you can be CG, NG, or LG, but nothing else. Several gods have any alignment (Mikon, I think Andagar) for their worshippers. Dru'els domains probably include some sort of 'good' as well, so I doubt an evil worshipper makes much sense.
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Re: Worshippers and Alignment
You said it yourself.The Gray wrote:Dru'El is the god of elves.
Dru'El's worshippers alignment must be "any good."
Elven people are chaotic. A nationalistic elf would still be chaotic.The Gray wrote:Can a sadistic, nationalist, lawful evil elf still worship...?
ie. They do evil things in the name of the elven people.
Come to the dark side...
Maleki

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I believe if the evil Elf wants to worship Dru'El he can but why would he want to if Dru'el is a god of goodness? An evil elf would worship one of the dark deities but if you want you can still pay respect to Dru'El as the creator of your race and therefore do things for the elves but he is not the god you worship because your alignment drives you to break to code of his religion.
I don't know if it is permitted though and I could be talking nonsense but that's the way I see things.
I don't know if it is permitted though and I could be talking nonsense but that's the way I see things.
Bloodlust! Hatred! Greed! They melt with Divine Magic and twist my very Soul! It burns!!
It burns like Fire in my veins! And that Fire shall consume all that oppose me!
It burns like Fire in my veins! And that Fire shall consume all that oppose me!
Not necessarily.
There are criminals out there that have devoted christian or judaic or muslim beliefs... not radical fundamentalist beliefs, but your average beliefs of being honest and kind and whatnot. It's an issue of realizing that they are evil, but wanting to strive to be good.
Circumstance or weak character has possibly made them evil... but they retain their faith in good, because that is what they WANT to become, even if they keep failing at pursuing that goal.
A character in this boat would have to RP trying to redeem themself, however, not actively pursuing evil for the sake of evil.
There are criminals out there that have devoted christian or judaic or muslim beliefs... not radical fundamentalist beliefs, but your average beliefs of being honest and kind and whatnot. It's an issue of realizing that they are evil, but wanting to strive to be good.
Circumstance or weak character has possibly made them evil... but they retain their faith in good, because that is what they WANT to become, even if they keep failing at pursuing that goal.
A character in this boat would have to RP trying to redeem themself, however, not actively pursuing evil for the sake of evil.
<Sili> I've seen septic tanks with less shit in them than Fuzz.
<Ronnin> damm not even a kiss??
<Chasmania> Kiss Fuzz? I'd rather fellate a goat.
<Chasmania> there are many roads to Rome..they just picked a shit filled alley full of scabby hookers and bums.
The shape of things to come...
<Ronnin> damm not even a kiss??
<Chasmania> Kiss Fuzz? I'd rather fellate a goat.
<Chasmania> there are many roads to Rome..they just picked a shit filled alley full of scabby hookers and bums.
The shape of things to come...
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Many fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, ect. are what I would call evil. Abortion clinic bombers, crusaders, Pat Buchanan... the list goes on.
Now, I'm not sure what a DM would say, but I could imagine an evil elf worshipping Dru'El, believing the elves are the greatest, ect. and that humans should be exterminated because they threaten Dru'El's children.
I could very much imagine him trying to further Dru'El's cause despite being the polar opposite alignment. After all, in his own eyes, he probably thinks of himself as a good person, and of his cause as a just one, so why would he worship an evil deity?
Now, I'm not sure what a DM would say, but I could imagine an evil elf worshipping Dru'El, believing the elves are the greatest, ect. and that humans should be exterminated because they threaten Dru'El's children.
I could very much imagine him trying to further Dru'El's cause despite being the polar opposite alignment. After all, in his own eyes, he probably thinks of himself as a good person, and of his cause as a just one, so why would he worship an evil deity?
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I'm thinking it comes down to how good/evil are defined in DND/NWN/AVlis. Good is the self-lessness, promoting the good of others above yourself. Evil is simply being selfish. In your above example, people can be so caught up in their ideals that they follow them to the detriment and destruction of others, in which case it is evil. When it comes to Avlis, the good gods are generally promoting policies of putting others first and the bad gods are promoting policies of putting yourself first. I'd think that an evil elf trying to follow DruEl would have to struggle a lot internall with the fact that he is self-interested and DruEl is other-interested, that brings up what Fuzz suggests: a person who has noble lofty ideals but is unable to fulfill them.Titanium Dragon wrote:Many fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, ect. are what I would call evil. Abortion clinic bombers, crusaders, Pat Buchanan... the list goes on.
Now, I'm not sure what a DM would say, but I could imagine an evil elf worshipping Dru'El, believing the elves are the greatest, ect. and that humans should be exterminated because they threaten Dru'El's children.
I could very much imagine him trying to further Dru'El's cause despite being the polar opposite alignment. After all, in his own eyes, he probably thinks of himself as a good person, and of his cause as a just one, so why would he worship an evil deity?
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another simple thing to keep in mind is would the god allow such a thing? Gods in a fantasy role setting such as Avlis are always taking an active role in some form in the world around them. Depending on the god, that involvement will differ, of course.
But in the above example, would Dru'El allow an evil elf to be his follower?
You also have to keep in the rule about alignments and degrees of seperation. I know it applies to clerics/druids specifically, but what about a follower in general?
But in the above example, would Dru'El allow an evil elf to be his follower?
You also have to keep in the rule about alignments and degrees of seperation. I know it applies to clerics/druids specifically, but what about a follower in general?
- Vanor
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Re: Worshippers and Alignment
Speaking as a DM here.The Gray wrote:Does a character have to be a certain alignment to worship a god?
It says quite clearly on the Avlis info page, what alignment is required to be a follower of each one of the gods. A Lawful Evil character can not be a follower of Dru'El, no matter what they do for the elfs. In fact Dru'El's followers must be either NG or CG, not Any Good.
As far as Good vs Evil. On Avlis it's defined as this...
Good believes that all life has a intrinisitc value. Evil believes that life in general doesn't have any intrinisic value. So the good PC does what ever is possable to protect life, the evil PC does what ever possable to ensure his or her goals come true.
Good vs Evil is about morals, Chaos vs Lawful is about ethics. There's a section on the avlis info page that lays all of this out.
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yep, I thought about including a link to it.
portal.php?getpage=alignments1
here it is. And I believe what I wrote was in total consonnace with the printed text.
portal.php?getpage=alignments1
here it is. And I believe what I wrote was in total consonnace with the printed text.
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Dru'El's ethos is to do what is right, and follow your own heart, even if it means breaking society's rules to do so. His followers thus are restricted to NG and CG. Lawful folks won't really be in agreement with the need for flexibility and individualism that Dru'El stresses, and non-Good folks don't share Dru'El's committment to helping others.
You can give respect to a God without worshipping them... thus e.g. a LE elf might appreciate Dru'El's creation of the elves as cited above, and might offer a prayer in thanks every now and again. However, this LE elf will also think Dru'El is a weakling, one whose lack of organization and commitment to helping others (instead of his own ends) is laughable. A LE character, elf or no, wouldn't find Dru'El's ethos to their liking, and Dru'El wouldn't approve of the tyranny and oppression in the LE character's heart - so there's a problem on both sides there. As has been stated, in Avlis the Gods are REAL, and they can and do interact with mortals. If you pretend to worship a God, you had fucking well better mean it, or you might get struck down by a blue bolt.
- Aloro
You can give respect to a God without worshipping them... thus e.g. a LE elf might appreciate Dru'El's creation of the elves as cited above, and might offer a prayer in thanks every now and again. However, this LE elf will also think Dru'El is a weakling, one whose lack of organization and commitment to helping others (instead of his own ends) is laughable. A LE character, elf or no, wouldn't find Dru'El's ethos to their liking, and Dru'El wouldn't approve of the tyranny and oppression in the LE character's heart - so there's a problem on both sides there. As has been stated, in Avlis the Gods are REAL, and they can and do interact with mortals. If you pretend to worship a God, you had fucking well better mean it, or you might get struck down by a blue bolt.

- Aloro
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I think people are taking alignments a bit too seriously here. An alignment does not define a character's personality; personally I think they are incredibly crude, as few are truly "good" or "evil", even arbitrarily. Also, people have an unfortunate tendency to focus on alignment rather than personality, when in reality the latter is far more important for RPing.
I think the situation is thus: said elf is highly nationalistic, and thinks that humans are beneath him and, because they are currently at war with the elves, deserve to be exterminated. Now, this elf probably doesn't think of himself as evil. In fact, he is likely to think he is good, and to other elves who do not know of his slaughtering of humans, he might even seem to be a pretty nice fellow. Some may even approve. (Think of the Sereg here!) Now, this character would see no reason not to worship Dru'El - he worships his creator as the pinnacle of everything. He might even think he is in line with his god's teachings. After all, he is doing what he thinks is the right thing - exterminating humans. He is following his own heart, despite what his fellow elves may think of him. Now, this character may be evil on the character sheet, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't believe himself to be a good person - few evil people truly believe they are evil! So why can't he worship the god, under this logic?
Then again, I'm no DM, so maybe I should just shut up now.
No offene meant to the DMs, and no challenge to their power - just something that might potentially change their minds. If not - well, they are the gods, and their say is final
*ducks and covers, cowering in terror*
I think the situation is thus: said elf is highly nationalistic, and thinks that humans are beneath him and, because they are currently at war with the elves, deserve to be exterminated. Now, this elf probably doesn't think of himself as evil. In fact, he is likely to think he is good, and to other elves who do not know of his slaughtering of humans, he might even seem to be a pretty nice fellow. Some may even approve. (Think of the Sereg here!) Now, this character would see no reason not to worship Dru'El - he worships his creator as the pinnacle of everything. He might even think he is in line with his god's teachings. After all, he is doing what he thinks is the right thing - exterminating humans. He is following his own heart, despite what his fellow elves may think of him. Now, this character may be evil on the character sheet, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't believe himself to be a good person - few evil people truly believe they are evil! So why can't he worship the god, under this logic?
Then again, I'm no DM, so maybe I should just shut up now.


- Vanor
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No, because Dru'El would tell him in one way or another... That what he's doing isn't acceptable, and he either changes his behavor, finds another god, or gets a bolt of lightning in the ass.Titanium Dragon wrote:Now, this character would see no reason not to worship Dru'El - he worships his creator as the pinnacle of everything. He might even think he is in line with his god's teachings.
Alignment can easily be changed on Avlis, but does mean something. What it says on your character sheet does matter, but not as much as what you do.
Generally speaking, Evil people do know and believe the are in fact evil. But that doesn't nesicarlly mean what we think it does. Having a evil alignment doesn't mean you run around killing everyone or that you have to preform any other action what so ever to be evil. It just means you don't think life has any value, so won't worry about harming or killing someone, if doing so furthers your goals.
I guess you could say, that in a odd sort of way, being Evil doesn't make you a bad person. It simply is a measure of what your willing to do to get what you want.
A follower of Dru'El would never run around mindlessly slaughtering humans, they can and many do join the military, but that's done to defend their home, not so they can kill.
Last edited by Vanor on Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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your right, the numbers on the card actually matter little with two exceptions: playing a class that requires/prohibits specific alignment 2. which death plane you go to.Titanium Dragon wrote:I think people are taking alignments a bit too seriously here.
Other than that, you get judged by your words/actions IC. Truth be told, they can put whatever they want on their char card, but I'll never see it as a player, only thing I'll see is what they do in game and what they say to my character. Thats the only thing I have to go on in saying 'hey this person is good or this one is evil" Of course, DMs have greater powers there, but thats there business. when I step into the game, my characters know what they see.
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He can respect Dru'El, and he can think nice things about Dru'El, but he can't WORSHIP Dru'El because he's simply not aligned with the basic teachings of the God.Titanium Dragon wrote:I think the situation is thus: said elf is highly nationalistic, and thinks that humans are beneath him and, because they are currently at war with the elves, deserve to be exterminated. Now, this elf probably doesn't think of himself as evil. In fact, he is likely to think he is good, and to other elves who do not know of his slaughtering of humans, he might even seem to be a pretty nice fellow. Some may even approve. (Think of the Sereg here!) Now, this character would see no reason not to worship Dru'El - he worships his creator as the pinnacle of everything. He might even think he is in line with his god's teachings. After all, he is doing what he thinks is the right thing - exterminating humans. He is following his own heart, despite what his fellow elves may think of him. Now, this character may be evil on the character sheet, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't believe himself to be a good person - few evil people truly believe they are evil! So why can't he worship the god, under this logic?
Yes, it is important to follow one's heart. However, many people misunderstand this to mean "Do whatever you want". This is not what Dru'El teaches. Dru'El is committed to helping others, to making the world a better place. Every person should find their own path to doing so, but the end goal should be the same. Dru'El promotes individuality in service to others - not individuality for its own sake.
You must also remember that we use a shared definition of Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos here. Thus mechanically what matters is whether an action is Good by Avlis' standards - it does not matter one whit whether a character believes himself to be Evil or not. His belief in no way impacts on the mechanical alignment on his character sheet, nor does it alter his standing in relation to a God. Your elf might think he is a good person, but inside him something has twisted and turned foul (by the absolute standards we're forced to use), and Dru'El will see this immediately. The God would not accept this elf as a worshipper.
Moreover, I don't think it likely that this Evil elf would hold Dru'El as a paragon of elfhood: "Dru'El? Not the God for me. After all, he's foolishly devoted to helping the weak and downtrodden. Those worthless worms should just be exterminated to make more room for the rest of us, right? Protecting the innocent is pointless anyhow. It's a cruel world, and they might as well learn that sooner rather than later. Now Valok, he knows what's important: glory and power. Fighting these humans will gain me skill in war, and also fame and respect back home."
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Again, might he not think this way in regard to elves, but not in regard to humans? After all, many Christians were slave holders, are racist, or just generally aren't good people. Some blow up abortion clinics, others kill Jews for "killing Christ". I would define such people as evil, but they believe themselves to be following their faith to the letter. (this is not an attack on Christianity, this is just an example that comes readily to mind).Moreover, I don't think it likely that this Evil elf would hold Dru'El as a paragon of elfhood: "Dru'El? Not the God for me. After all, he's foolishly devoted to helping the weak and downtrodden. Those worthless worms should just be exterminated to make more room for the rest of us, right? Protecting the innocent is pointless anyhow. It's a cruel world, and they might as well learn that sooner rather than later. Now Valok, he knows what's important: glory and power. Fighting these humans will gain me skill in war, and also fame and respect back home."
Then again, their god doesn't come down and lay down the smack on evil.
And as for most evil people thinking of themselves as evil - name one evil person in the real world who thinks of themself as evil. I cannot.
However, the DMs have spoken, and it does make sense - Avlis's dieties are interventionalist, and likely would not appreciate evil followers (at least, not the good gods). I can see him worshipping Dru'El, but in the end, the DMs ARE Dru'El, so they choose.
Good luck with your character![/quote]
- Vanor
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That's because in Real Life being evil is a bad thing. No one will admit that they're a bad thing.Titanium Dragon wrote:And as for most evil people thinking of themselves as evil - name one evil person in the real world who thinks of themself as evil. I cannot.
On Avlis, or D&D in general, being evil isn't a bad thing, it simply is a measure of your morals. A good person is very moral, a evil person is immoral.
And I've known or heard of people who have no trouble admitting that they aren't really conserned over morals.