NWN and 3.5

[Spell Singer]

I picked up the 3.5 rulebooks (players, DM, monster manual) recently and have started to go through them. I got most of the way through the players guide in a general way (reading what interested me most) and am slowly working through the monster manual (at G).

I must admit that NWN actually is fairly close to the 3.5 rules in many cases (as opposed to the 3 rules where there were significant differences).

I looked in detail at the two classes that interested me the most (Bard and Paladin) and in both cases the 3.5 rules have improved them signficantly.

Paladins spell selection under 3.5 is great....it is also pretty much the NWN list as opposed to the list under 3 which was basically assinine. There are a few spells in the list for 3.5 I hope make into the paladin list in NWN (Negative energy protection and lesser restore for example). Also smite evil becoming more than a once a day thing is a long overdue change.

Bards gained a lot as well. The ability to cast in light armor is great! Also the "Bard weapons" as opposed to taking one from the list is a much better idea. This is one that I would like to see come into NWN. NWN handles bard song a bit differently than the rules but the effects are much the same in the end (basically you get a generic bardsong effect in NWN as opposed to several specialized songs) but the Bard does not have the option of staying out of combat and extending the singing.

I also noticed that with greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization that fighters now can tie up 5 feats in one weapon (weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, greater weapon focus, and greater weapon specialization)...but that gives a +2 to hit, +4 damage and increased critical which is not so bad.

The spell school +1 bonus realy should be the +2 from NWN. A bard with greater enchantment school and its +4 bonus to DC can do a lot.

There is now little difference between the feats in NWN and those in the rules which is good to see.

A good example is that Skill focus gives +3 rather than the +2 in the ver 3 rules.

Some things I would like to see in NWN though are:

martial weapon expertise for non fighters, rangers, paladins or barbarians granting only the single weapon it is supposed to.

the bow skill not seperating skill with composite from normal bows of the same type.

weapon damage depending on character/weapon size.

barbarian rage having the down side it is supposed to have. The barbarian character is realy improved in 3.5 I though from a quick run through.

domains done properly...I am totally confused as to why these were implemented the way they were in NWN there seems to be no reason for it, except that a number of the spells gained may not have been so useful in the single player campaign. And why did they leave out the law and chaos domains is beyond me.

summoned creatures with the right damned time limit.

Some changes I would not like to see:

the duration of characteristic spells going to minutes/level (in effect with time compression the duration is about that anyway 1 RL minute/level).

the caster levels for rangers and paladins being done the way they are in the books (basicaly it criples some of the more critical spells such as divine favor and greater magic weapon) as the caster level would be maxed at lvl 10.

It was good to see that the PnP rules and NWN are actually coming closer together as time goes on...

[Vergilius]

I've flipped through the books in the store and talked with a few friends in the past over suggested changes that might make the game better. I was pretty pleased with a lot of things in NWN vs PnP as it seemed like they had understood some of the PnP weaknesses and fixed them in NWN. Then more recently, it came to light that many of these changes I was so impressed with had already worked their way into 3.5.

I suppose I looked more at the Barbarian/Ranger changes as I rarely play bards and Paladins. The barbarian has definitely got some more goods that might actually make it more enjoyable to play. I remember the first PnP barbarian that I played. DM looked at me like I was dumb and said, "Are you sure you want to play a Barbarian? You'll have very little to look forward to on level-up except your rages. I was like, yeah. anyway, he decided to be nice and told me every so often that I had learned a new feat, so by the end of the campaign, my barbarian has 5 extra feats to keep things interesting.

Looking over the barbarian changes, DR starts earlier and runs to 5/- which I think is a pretty big change over all. It doesn't end load the barb so much. The barb rages now have two gradations instead of one, which I also find really helpful.

Turning to the Ranger: although I know a lot of people have been love or hate what they ve done to it, without a doubt, ranger needed some adjusting, both to give it a little more umpf and to hone the concept. Bread and Butter for the Ranger is of course the favored enemy. I liked what the NWN engine did to the favored enemy and was definitely a conceptual improvement over PnP experience. 3.5 also improves altlhough with a different concept. Favored enemy level 1 receives a +2 bonus, instead of +1. at level 5, a new favored enemy is selected at +2 and an additional +2 can be added. at level 10, a 3rd enemy at +2, and a 2nd +2 can be added to one of these enemies. Basically, the rnager gets choices, they can hunt one enemy die-hard and have a +10 bonus at level 20, the rest being +2, or they can spread the love out a bit.

A lot of other changes were made atlhough they won't be incorporated into NWN due to engine restrictions. IN fact, I think engine limitations will be the story of many changes that don't make it into NWN.

Then of course, there is the pressure that the SP population puts upon Bioware.

Anyway, maybe I'll be able to afford the new books some time soon and can give a more thorough evaluation.

[Morbid Ridicule]

3.5 is out already??

...and I've only played like 1 game with my 3rd edition rules!

[Vergilius]

3.5 is out already??

...and I've only played like 1 game with my 3rd edition rules!

The copyright to 3rd ed is 2000 in my handbook, so its been a few years.

[Sindol]

Indeed, a few years. Not long enough by far to bring out a new edition. I guess that's why they brought out an updated variant of the 3.0 and called it 3.5.

You say there are improvements in there? Sure, but I think they should have released them on the web as well. No need to charge people 35 bucks for what is essentially an update as far as I've seen it.

Just my ?0.02.

[Vergilius]

Indeed, a few years. Not long enough by far to bring out a new edition. I guess that's why they brought out an updated variant of the 3.0 and called it 3.5.

You say there are improvements in there? Sure, but I think they should have released them on the web as well. No need to charge people 35 bucks for what is essentially an update as far as I've seen it.

Just my ?0.02.

actually, you can get them on the web, you just have to search long enough with enough patience and dillegence.

Of course, I agree, 35 dollars for just an update is a bit pricey in my book.

verg~

[Reinstag]

Go here for the downloadable (PDF) booklets that update the 3ed books...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a

And my opinion on the whole thing is that 3.5 is an improvement. And if you count Basic DnD thats 4 editions in 25 years. Not too shabby. Nothing like MtG with 8 editions in 10 years.

*shrugs*