Now Discussion of "Test Avlis XP and Loot"

[MadK@]

Fairness has its place, and i think that is embodied in the rules and mechanics of the game. That said, resetting the characters would NOT be fair, because all i will have lost is a level 7 character with comparatively little investment. Would that be fair to Nayala or Moira, or Aerill? I submit it would not be fair to do that.

-J

I can tell you now quite confidently that character resets will never happen.

[Jaybob]

Fairness has its place, and i think that is embodied in the rules and mechanics of the game. That said, resetting the characters would NOT be fair, because all i will have lost is a level 7 character with comparatively little investment. Would that be fair to Nayala or Moira, or Aerill? I submit it would not be fair to do that.

-J

I can tell you now quite confidently that character resets will never happen.

I know that, i'm just trying to point out to Doomsday why i think it's a bad idea... I'd have been really, really, REALLY shocked if the idea was considered for more than few seconds.

[Kerrick]

In fact, I'll even play devil's advocate. The cap's a bad idea because it creates a grind effect. If I, as a player, hit my 7,000 cap for the week, there's no reason whatsoever to do any adventuring;

Why does everyone seem to think it'd be easy to hit 7,000 XP from crumping in a week? Yes, that's from crumping only - some people seem to be missing that point. Your average player will probably make 3-4,000 in a week, if they go out crumping a few times, or hit a couple good dungeons with a large crew (FEAT, for example). A PGer could hit 5,000. You'd really have to work at it, though, to get 7,000 in a week - you're either playing constantly, doing nothing BUT crumping, or camping someplace like NFM with a huge group.

And what about people that log on at odd hours, when the servers only have 1-5 players on? There's no sense in doing any solo adventuring, because it's a resource sink with little to no benefit.

It depends on your build and knowledge of the world, really - mages would have a hard time soloing anything, but fighter classes could go run just about any dungeon designed for their level. Some of the worst PGers solo everything.

Tracking down the other few players on, while not a problem from the team's standpoint, is pretty danged cheesy.

You forgot to tack on an "IMO" there. There's nothing wrong with sending someone a tell or coordinating things in IRC or over another medium (Yahoo, AIM, etc.) to "run into each other" somewhere, and then start RPing, and "Hey, let's go here!" As long as you don't just "meet up" and then run off to the dungeon with no IC interaction whatsoever, I don't see a problem with it, personally - I do it all the time. With a world as large as ours, sometimes that's the best and easiest way to gather some guildmates or friends together to go do something fun.

(unless you enjoy clicking on plants, ore veins, and tables for half of your play time).

A lot of people do crafting when the servers are quiet - it's something to do, and they can advance their craft without worrying about missing out on RP or DM events or whatever. Then, when more people show up, then can come out and socialize and maybe get involved in something.

[Cushman]

How is the "week" marked? It occured to me that if it was always a set time of the RL week, say 000 Sunday, then there might develop a pattern where Sunday and for several days there would be a rush to adventure with (relatively) little time at Elf Gate, the rock, or whatever, and then toward the end of the week there would be a (relative) surge of people all of a sudden showing up at the social places. How much that kind of a pattern emerges only time would tell, but.... If people's "week" was staggered, somehow, that would completely mitigate any such potential.

[Calzier]

Just on fairness - seems to me that there's a bigger unfairness when it comes to gold and items, that is a direct consequence of player age. The management (or Team, if you prefer) have steadily (or it fits and bursts, actually) made efforts to create a more sustainable economy, to reduce the rewards... but if a PC is still running around from a long time ago, they're likely to have stuff & money that is simply out of reach of newer PCs.

Nothing unfair about someone working their butt off (whether crafting, adventuring or participating in plots) and gaining more gold / items than someone who sits at home, but there is an unfairness when the system changes and leaves those who were around before with an advantage over those who come later.

Now, this is probably only a real issue inasmuch as it effects the current economy (1.5 Million for Battle Bands *might* be an example - you can buy a pretty decent house for that) - although the extent it really affects the current economy is something only someone behind the scenes could comment on with authority - or when it affects the design of dungeons. I noticed somewhere someone complaining about the cost / availability of +3 weapons, and the problems this created for certain areas (making them essentially no-go areas, possibly permanently so for characters growing up in the more impoverished environment.

I don't know the real extent of this issue, but someone might want to look at it -or at least keep it in mind; as the economy is changed, make sure the areas are tweaked to provide the same level of challenge, rather than inadvertently increasing it.

[Darkfire]

Out of fairness towards the XP amount that Doomsday was talking about...

look at 99.9% of the current level 40's. Every single one of them averaged less then 7,000 XP a week. So in fact, this xp/week cap IS fair because the current level 40's haven't had an advantage over anyone else who seeks to hit level 40.

[loki70]

Out of fairness towards the XP amount that Doomsday was talking about...

look at 99.9% of the current level 40's. Every single one of them averaged less then 7,000 XP a week. So in fact, this xp/week cap IS fair because the current level 40's haven't had an advantage over anyone else who seeks to hit level 40.

But, I wanted to do it in a week with farming and killing rats. I can't do that??

Honestly, I don't think I have ever pulled higher than 7k in a week in the last three years, and that's including some serious PG ruts and some times I was clocking 80+ hours online.

[Jaybob]

Just on fairness - seems to me that there's a bigger unfairness when it comes to gold and items, that is a direct consequence of player age. The management (or Team, if you prefer) have steadily (or it fits and bursts, actually) made efforts to create a more sustainable economy, to reduce the rewards... but if a PC is still running around from a long time ago, they're likely to have stuff & money that is simply out of reach of newer PCs.

good point, Calzier. Changes like this can reasonably be seen as unfair. This raises a few questions which may or may not be answerable.

First, what can be done to correct the problem? The people that were active before the changes went into effect were operating in ways that were perfectly legal at the time, and the rewards they got as a result were fairly earned. When the changes went into effect, they definitely had an advantage over those who came after. However, taking what they have away from them wouldn't be fair either, if they did nothing wrong, nor were instrumental in having the changes made.

Unfortunately, I'm running out of time to type (deadlines to meet at work), so if anyone gets what I'm trying to say and would like to further elaborate, have at it.

Just remember, we're being civil, and this discussion should proceed thoughtfully of other people's opinions. I'd like to avoid this thread getting locked before every voice has been heard.

-J

[Darkfire]

Just on fairness - seems to me that there's a bigger unfairness when it comes to gold and items, that is a direct consequence of player age. The management (or Team, if you prefer) have steadily (or it fits and bursts, actually) made efforts to create a more sustainable economy, to reduce the rewards... but if a PC is still running around from a long time ago, they're likely to have stuff & money that is simply out of reach of newer PCs.

good point, Calzier. Changes like this can reasonably be seen as unfair. This raises a few questions which may or may not be answerable.

First, what can be done to correct the problem? The people that were active before the changes went into effect were operating in ways that were perfectly legal at the time, and the rewards they got as a result were fairly earned. When the changes went into effect, they definitely had an advantage over those who came after. However, taking what they have away from them wouldn't be fair either, if they did nothing wrong, nor were instrumental in having the changes made.

Unfortunately, I'm running out of time to type (deadlines to meet at work), so if anyone gets what I'm trying to say and would like to further elaborate, have at it.

Just remember, we're being civil, and this discussion should proceed thoughtfully of other people's opinions. I'd like to avoid this thread getting locked before every voice has been heard.

-J

This has been happening since Avlis has started. When I first started, there was more "epic" (aka 1%er) gear floating around. Their gear was impossible for me to get, to rare and expensive. Sure it sucked, but I always think it to be fair, even if at first it sucks.

They have been here longer, proven themselves worthy at some point in time to get such items. Think of them as the legends, that's what I do. Why does he have better items then I ever will be able to have? Because he has been around 2 years (rl) longer then me and has done at least twice as much stuff as I have. The truely epic people that have the 1%er gear that are still around are just that, truely epic.

It only seems unfair when you try to compare yourself to the richest people out there.



*typed quickly before having to run off to work*

[yorlik]

There are simply two extremes of XP systems:

One extreme would be what grunt pointed out above:
An XP rent, independant of your playtime. You would level, no matter what
you do.

The other would be one where you need to bash/craft/collect a lot
to get the XP you need to level.
This helps addicts with a lot of time at their hands.

A realistic XP system is some sort of compromise, with some arbitrary
assumptions:
How fast shall one level ?
How much time shall one need for that ?

A combination of an XP or Level-Cap with much easier gained XP is a good
compromise in my opinion: Easy XP grants regular levelling for people
who play not extremely much. The cap prevents people with lots of time
at their hands to rush away.

It seems most people never hit the weekly cap of 7,000 XP. These people
would greatly benefit from the cap in combination with much easier XP
gaining.

It would still be necessary to do something to level, but there would be a
limit. And much time for RPing and forum work would be released.

I personally would think a world designed such, that gaining 1500-2000 XP
in one hour is possible together with a cap of 7,000 would do the job:
3-5 hours of dungeon bashing per week and you get your PC levelling regularly.

Lots of time left for forums and RPing without gaining XP.
Lots of time for Real Life, without waiting ages to level.
Would kinda stop too much addictive behavior.
Of course - the hardcore addicts would probably simply roll up more PCs,
but - Who cares then ?

[NayalaGelbert]

I think part of the problem here is that fairness is a chimera. It is an illusion that shifts as you take it in from different perspectives, whether chronological or cultural. Even if it were not, due to conditions of the past, the best you can hope for is "fair" for those that start today.

RL isn't fair, why should the fantasy world be? Other than, perhaps, the fact that it IS fantasy? But does that really matter? Does it need to be fair even if such a thing were possible? Fairness isn't really a part of the human condition (you may include halflings, elves, ogres, etc...). Although most arguments for one system or another seem to base themselves upon some concept of fairness, I don't perceive this as necessary.

What will be fair is that everyone will be under the same set of rules, for better or worse. And this has always been true at any given moment. The team, who has more perspective than the rest of us, sees this change as working towards the Avlis they wish to create. I think it's great that the Team is letting us try it out, and give our feedback and suggestions. Ultimately the Team will decide, and some of us won't like it. Is that fair? Does it really matter?

Please don't interpret this a call to end discussion... simply a plea to stop measuring up to a standard of "fairness" like a dog chasing its tail.

IMO... that is...

[yorlik]

I wouldn't actually use the term "fairness" at all,
since fairness has something to do with winning and losing.
And you can't really win or lose in an RPG - of course one can pertain the
illusion of it.

But in the meantime I came to the conclusion, that - even if you do NOT
play Avlis with an "I want to win" attitude - a certain balancing is still
necessary, even if you are a hardcore Rper.

Nob wrote something on it above in this thread, which I think was good.
The gist of it was - if I got it right:
Powergaming does affect others. Thus ignoring PGers is not enough.

Its not about some arbitrary ideas of fairness.
Its about the whole atmosphere on Avlis.

[Cerridwyn]

I think part of the problem here is that fairness is a chimera. It is an illusion that shifts as you take it in from different perspectives,

as one of my high school teachers once said: there is a difference between fairness and justice.

is it fair to have a cap that affects everyone--not if you're a PGer. PGers will scream unfair....because it directly affects the way they play.

is it just to have rules for a game that affects a large number of people--undoubtedly.

take a (slightly overblown) example from RL:

Someone gets drunk at a club. They're a good bit from home, having driven there. They've had a bad day. It's not their usual habit to drink and drive. When they leave, they have an one car accident, meet the cops and get a ticket. ... Since no one was hurt (probably not even the drunk), is he going to think it's fair that he get a ticket and probably a few hours drying out in jail? most likely not.

HOWEVER, is it justice that there is a law about this? definately. is it justice that the drunk is punished for breaking a rule. of course. this sort of behavior could affect many people. thus, there is a rule on the books.

unfortunate sometimes that people have to be told how to behave. ..

[Tigg]

look at 99.9% of the current level 40's. Every single one of them averaged less then 7,000 XP a week.

Not true. No, I'm not going to name names.

[aquasoup]

I do find it funny in these sorts of threads that there is always this undercurrent of generalisation of RP into good and bad categories. This analysis is a little tongue in cheek but...


Standing around RP, or IM/chatroom RP
Good
where the only activity is chatting - such as Elfgate RP. It's good because it does nothing to advance your character's world knowledge and development, or if it does it's like 1% as productive as other activities mechanically (DM cookies very occassionally give some validation to stationary rp)
Bad
If you find a way to combine any sort of constructive activity with standing about RP, like maybe crafting or gathering, because all our characters should be compulsively lazy and gossips to boot. Everyone in a medieval society spent all day chatting, work was optional.
Good
However can be good again if you combine any sort of activity with standing about RP that doesn't reward you mechanically whatsoever, something like holding a class or a lecture, or giving a performance - the key is aslong as there's no existing mechanics to reward it and a DM doesn't notice or get involved you're okay.

Moving around RP, or D&D with your RP
bad
Any sort of dungeoning or adventuring in the D&D style with others, where you meet up, discover a reason to not stand about gossiping and go out and conduct some sort of activities, not only are you having fun, but you are also benefiting from it, that's immoral, what would the gods say!
Good
DM instigated moving around RP, you were standing around in elfgate trying to gossip, and a DM came and poked you with a storyline-stick, so you were forced to actually move about and it's not your fault your character may accrue some mechanical advancement. "A DM forced me to XP, and with a story too! it's not my fault honestly!"

Calamity RP
Good
Any sort of RP that goes badly for your character possibly losing you XP or putting you in peril - afterall what's better than having a new experience and that actively deleting some of the things you already knew about the world, it's like growing but backwards, therefore better!!
Bad
Anytype of risk to your character where you triumph over adversity and learn from the event, clearly you were only risking yourself to gain progress! Not for storytelling possibilities! That's a given because you didn't get punished with forgetting some things about the world in the process.

Levelling Up
Good
Well de-levelling obviously, knowing less about the world and your character at the end of each day is better of course but, that said.
Bad
Any sort of levelling where you engaged in monster bashing, and then picked some sneaking or persuasion next level up - never mind there is no way under nwn to advance sneaking by sneaking, or bluff by actually bluffing, or appraise by buying and selling things, you should have found a way.


This is an attempt to inject some humour, but all activity in NWN is powergaming to some degree, because you're aware of the mechanics of the simulation and that is effecting how you do things. Almost any situation you can point a finger at, and call it powergaming if you like:-
You pick a monk as your starting class, well you are powergaming, because you wanted to be a monk, what you should have chosen was barbarian instead, if you wanted to be properly RP.

There is always this slightly bizarre stigma attached to any sort of constructive activity for not being RP enough... but being constructive, gaining xp, going exploring and putting some D&D in with the RP, having your character represent gaining knowledge of the world and him/herself through the limitations of the NWN mechanics - that's actually what makes the environment good and fun and.... not a chatroom. Why isn't the risk of dying, and potentially losing all your gear, having nightmare corpse runs and spending more resources than you accrue, all the existing mechanics counted as a legitimate downsides? why does D&D-ing need to be stigmatised for not being RP enough also?


Commonly, analysing the folks saying advancement is too fast! In my day we walked uphill to school barefoot through the snow both ways morning and night, produces a slight sense that those that already have, don't wish those that don't have, to join them. How many of the older players never used the Elysia farms at all to give any kind of boost to a new character, back when the only barrier to repeating the gathering was boredom, RSI or level five. How many other loopholes have been tightened over the years? How far has the economy inflated and how affordable really is the world for a new player? The veterans perspective of everything is too easy now, only applies because veterans know how everything works and how to manipulate the systems, the main powergamers we have to fear are the veterans themselves own alts, who breeze through more quickly with their existing knowledge and readily assembled social circles.

So the new measures are great because they will actually encourage some of the new or lower players to group a little better with the increasingly out of reach elder population (gear & levels). That can only be good for maintaining some kind of new intake to replace those that leave. If you limit your new intake to always being totally underclassed forever, not surprisingly few of them will want to stick around for that.

The new measures are also bad in my view because if per month Jeff and Dave both do 40hours of standing about RP and 30hours of moving around RP per month, but Jeff carefully plans his to be spread evenly over the entire month and Dave ends up doing a large proportion of his moving about RP inside one particular week, there's a strong possiblity that 30 hours per month moving about RP will do very different things to their characters knew knowledge of the world.

Caps really should be linked to creation dates, and/or longer averaging periods to make them work better mathmatically.


Finally, why really is the D&D side of things being capped exactly? I mean gathering a party and going exploring somewhere dangerous, challenging yourselves on evil (or good) opponents, that is the D&D central premise, and it's very sociable. Yet it's the solo, largely anti-social and repetitive activities like grinding gathering, crafting and quests that are remaining uncapped?

[Katroine]

Finally, why really is the D&D side of things being capped exactly? I mean gathering a party and going exploring somewhere dangerous, challenging yourselves on evil (or good) opponents, that is the D&D central premise, and it's very sociable.

I think it is the grabbing your buddy, literally running through a dungeon, not stopping to explore, enjoy, roleplay, killing everything quickly, resting, rinse, repeat. That's powergaming. You aren't roleplaying if you run through a dungeon just blasting stuff, unless you are running out saying OMGscary.

If you want to play D&D purist, how often did you get together with your little party and do the same module/adventure/cave/spawn over and over?

[aquasoup]

We have the limitations of the NWN engine, it's realtime nature and the finite amount of content. It makes it very difficulty to actually RP like PnP where a single round can take half an hour if need be to cover the RP whilst fighting. We all know that, but it doesn't mean a bit of devil's advocacy can't find logical flaws, because they are there. Forum discussion is all very well and good I know you have to go with what's actually practical eventually, however in a sense the capping measures (whilst they may be the closest solution) don't really address the problem, powergaming a dungeon is bad, RP-hunting a dungeon is good, gaining xp from killing is rather neutral really.

What does a 6month to level20 policy really mean, I know it's an example of good mollification measures for existing vets that their achievements won't be cheapened by newcomers on paper, but really newcomers will rarely ever catch up or know as much or have as much, it's more vets alts they are in competition with if one is being honest. In practical terms which is truly more scandalous Matt's character that makes 20 in 8months by cycle grinding the best quests and hunting grounds for each level in the most efficient manner possible for a mere 30hrs a month or John's character that is played 300hours a month but makes 20 in 4months? (240hrs versus 1200hrs played).

Timetables for level milestones don't really mean much, divorced from actual hours played as just another devil's advocate. It's a little like the driving blood alcohol level being based on a 10% reduction in reaction time, but whose reactions?? A typical 80year old driver might have reaction times on average 70% slower than a 20year old, does that mean the 80 year is 7 times over the DUI limit? Of course not, it's about perception, not exactly cold logic. (And yes 80 year old drivers typically have far less accidents because they drive slower and more carefully and really don't need to show off anymore)

Anyway back to D&D, just throwing out random thoughts
Perhaps, dungeons should give less xp overall, but the first time you complete them they give a large one time bonus or once a month or 2 monthly bonus? Scripting that is vast amounts (i.e. impractical) of work though I suspect. Perhaps alot of quests should give diminishing returns i.e. 1000 first time then 500 then 250 then 125 etc, but again that's alot of work and changing the playing field retty radically for new people compared to vets.


There are a couple of suggestions I can make that wouldn't involve insane amounts of work I think, if lots of people have got over 7k in the past for kills per week then those doors should not be entirely bolted shut in the future.

1) carry over last weeks leftover (if applicable) xp allowance to this week. It keeps the neatness of 7k per week which people feel psychologically attached to, but allows some leeway for slow/fast weeks.
2) track a new variable on pc's (or use an existing one) but allow DM's to use a RP while hunting widget that gives a player a charge, anytime they cap out in a week, perhaps a single charge used up might let them go over by 500 that week. That way there's a slim chance that RP-ing whilst hunting gets a better cap than just powergrinding dungeons.

(much more work but...)
3) Add an artifact/altar to the last/hardest room in each dungeon with a level grade and corresponding amounts of xp depending on dungeon difficulty - aslong as you are high enough level to click whichever dungeon's artifact, the first time you click a new artifact it gives you the xp amounts from all the dungeons you have unlocked so far. So exploring and visiting everywhere has a real benefit, but it can't be cycled PG style. A side effect is sneaks could gain some XP by sneaking certain dangerous places perhaps too.


Anyway, most of my stance is devil's advocate, and advocating more coding fixes might be impractical, but debating rules changes is never bad, at least in a civil tone, sometimes interesting ideas turn up.

[Ensoleille]

Seriously? You lose me after the 5th line. *has forum a.d.d.*

[llhht]

Seriously? You lose me after the 5th line. *has forum a.d.d.*

*does too*

[Darkfire]

look at 99.9% of the current level 40's. Every single one of them averaged less then 7,000 XP a week.

Not true. No, I'm not going to name names.

There are only 2 level 40 I knew of that has played here in a shorter amount of time then I have. 2 years, 2 months. All of the other ones (that I know of) have been here a lot longer then I. Hell, I thought the pace that I leveled up in was incredibly fast, that's why when I had too much free time I would craft or scribe or something to get rid of some of it instead of adventuring.

For the argument that I was attempting to make in the above (fully quoted, and not saying that you took it out of context or anything) passage, I was implying with the idea of it not being fair (ie: people gaining a certain amount of XP and getting to level 40), that it really was fair, since most of the current level 40s never gained over 7,000 XP/week. the 99.9% was inaccurate, should have just said what I did just now, "most of".

[VETT SCALES L7]

Hitting 40 in 2 years? I saw that one no name monk guy Hargrin or whatever his name was do it in about a year. That guy never even stopped to talk to me when I tried to initiate a conversation, ran everywhere like a damn fool on crystal meth. I still have a hard time believing he did it without any help though.

Seriously, I played 7 days a week on basically one main pc and after leading 2 guilds, being in multiple events for 3 years and 5 months he finally hit 40. How someone could do even 30 in a single year is beyond me. That is either illegal xp or there is something seriously wrong going on. Hope every collectors quest is capped at 20 including that book and scroll quest and that robe thing that is available every reset.

[aquasoup]

So because one monk guy who's name you can't even really remember, who therefore sounds as if he had zero impact on the server's RP, managed to powergrind too fast, the xp curve of the entire server should be adjusted, now that you have safely reached 40?

I know I haven't earned the veteran status to offer criticism, but I've said the same thing with full confidance on servers where I do have that veteran elite vantage point in similar debates: just because I'm in a top position, it doesn't mean advocating clamping down on everyone below coming up is alright. It's far too human nature to assume your struggle to the top was titanic and their's was trivial, that self delusion is nearly always bollocks.

If you make it too hard for your newer players (most of whom aren't grind hungry and don't deserve to have a totally different playing curve to the elite to date) you won't get that many more new players, that eventually = server death.

For the most part Avlis has tightened rules, tightened quests, tightened loopholes over the years, I'd submit it's already harder to level up than you had it (for starters one can no longer elysia farm yourway to lvl 5), unless a newb has a veteran's body of knowledge of the most perfect routes and activities, and newb's simply don't.

[Marleh]

Aquasoup, I know you are recently returned, but you're giving a very narrow viewpoint of what this all entails.

Although Vett presents another very narrow viewpiont, the basis of the changes are valid and if anything, once the code is fully in place, it will greatly help younger characters.

Look back at what is being offered. Young characters will be given the full xp for their kills even when partied with much higher characters. That is an amazing incentive for both young and old characters to be able to adventure together without worrying about words like "towing" being banded about.

~Secondary~ to this is an xp cap that is far above what is the average xp gain for most characters.

This secondary addition is far outweighed by the first, and it also negates your arguement that 'unless a newb has a veteran's body of knowledge of the most perfect routes and activities' because once this code goes live, older characters will now be able to really show new players the way of things, not just try to explain it to them.

And you can still farm your way to lvl 5 in Elysia, you just can't do it all in a 10 hour grind fest.

[Sathsarrion]

I'd submit it's already harder to level up than you had it (for starters one can no longer elysia farm yourway to lvl 5)

Actually, back in the day you could farm your way into epic levels if you had the patience. I think the rate was somewhere over 1000 XP an hour without breaking a sweat, with no coded limits on it at all

[DanishPastry]

I'd submit it's already harder to level up than you had it (for starters one can no longer elysia farm yourway to lvl 5)

Actually, back in the day you could farm your way into epic levels if you had the patience. I think the rate was somewhere over 1000 XP an hour without breaking a sweat, with no coded limits on it at all

Elysia's Famous Farmer Mage springs to mind.

To be fair he also talked a lot about agricultural stuff IG, the one time I ran into him I had to stab myself repeatedly in order not to fall asleep from boredom.