Now Discussion of "Test Avlis XP and Loot"

Aeveras · Post by **Aeveras** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:16 pm

Having watched groups stand around EG doing nothing but chatting for hours on end, I can safely say that there will be PCs who won't feel the urge to go off-world. This urge to level as quickly as possible has always astonished me a bit. 7000xp a week means that a PC can go from level 20 to 21 in under a month, which if you ask me, is pretty good, and that's not even factoring in crafting, cookie and quest xp.

- Aeveras

Katroine · Post by **Katroine** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:41 pm

I play every day (almost) and no way can I get close to 7000 xp a week so no worries there for me.

I did have a question, as I can't get on and test yet. The grouping is fixed so high levels can party with low levels so as not to kill all chance of xp gained. Does this mean that if a 38 goes out with a 21, they get different xp for each kill, based on the difficulty level of the thing being killed?

I will pop on the server and test in a few but didn't want to report anything if I didn't understand it.

Tigg · Post by **Tigg** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:49 pm

PlasmaJohn wrote:
CPU wrote:But, that just means they won't be here gobbling up Avlis resources, whether it's computer cycles, bandwith, monster spawns or crafting goods.
Untrue. It is already easier to gain encounter kill xp off-world in certain circumstances. The net result is that many Avlis people already planewalk specifically to hit those spots and then come back. All a cap will do is encourage the abberent behavior.

I don't think it was implied that they would never come back, just that they wouldn't be using those Avlis resources while they were elsewhere.

aquasoup · Post by **aquasoup** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:10 pm

that should be 91k per quarter, of course it's 13weeks not 12 so 13x7k=91k

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:10 pm

Nob wrote:
PlasmaJohn wrote:
Nob wrote:If folks are going off world regularly to circumvent the cap, it would be fairly obvious based on their levelling habits.
The only tracking of portal usage that I'm aware of are the vaultster server logs which would require some extra effort to retrieve and parse along with some retention issues.
No need for Vaultster logs.

Just pull up the character's login history and see how quickly they're leveling. Simply comparing database entries a week apart or even a month apart would give enough of an idea on who might be going out to get around the cap.

Sounds good, although time-intensive for the Team. Would it be possible to automate the inability to circumvent the xp-cap?

Nasty solution: simply treat monster xp like crafting xp with regard to going off-world... it doesn't stick upon returning.

Not-so-nasty solution (possible?): top the xp upon returning off at the cap that would also be the limit if the PC had not gone off-world, i.e. make the cap hard regardless of whether the PC kills a monster or enters the world. That would (from both sides) encourage people to stick to one world as main and others as excursions but prohibit xp-expeditions for the sake of xp.

spool32 · Post by **spool32** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:19 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:I just retired my gnome ranger Fred (again ) because of the difficulty in leveling him. Basically, nothing he could kill gave any XP. The only way to XP from kills was to party-up and be tracker / scout, etc. But this new system would mean he would get same XP as if he was soloing, so basically back to no XP again.

(And before someone says, well Fred could always have taken up crafting or doing quests... well, I don't think you should be forced to take up crafting or whatever, just to gain XP (that would be totally meta-gaming). An adventuring character type should be able to make some XP from adventuring, IMHO).

It won't affect Fred, because he's retired. But it will affect characters like Fred, i.e. the ones that aren't "Power Builds".

Just my thoughts.

This logic is flawed.

Fred goes out solo. He's the gimpiest build in the world, so he can only kill crop rats... but they no longer give him any XP. He tries to solo the LRC and dies instantly.

Next, Fred parties up under the old system and wtfpwns the LRC with his mates. He gets 500xp altogether, based on the arcane calculations and whatever else determines XP currently.

Now the new system is implemented, and Fred parties up again for a trip to the LRC. Does he die instantly? No, his party mops the floor with Master Po's asses. Fred, instead of getting the 500 XP, gets whatever XP he would have gotten if he'd managed to somehow solo every monster in the place.

Your assertion that Fred's "solo XP gain" in a party trolling an epic dungeon would be equal to Fred's pathetic ability to actually solo something is incorrect.

-spool32

badjabadjabadja · Post by **badjabadjabadja** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:52 pm

Just had a run about on the testserver... a few observations:

Partied with lvls 11, 23, 27 & we all got the same xp ~surely under the new system the lvl11 PC should get more xp?
XP seemed to be a bit lower than usual.. ie. some lowbie spawns where giving 0xp.. when am sure they give 1xp usually

Spawns seemed to be making less drops.. like i wiped a bandit gang or two & got no drops at all..
But then another bandit gang dropped a ruby golems manual..

All animals dropped creature parts (could be food for the lagmonster perhaps?).

&.. as someone in the party commented.. are dyes the new alcohol?

As for the XP level capping: it's a crude measurement.. but i think 7k xp a week is pretty well spot on. It will slow down those who can PG that in a few hours dungeon trawling, but for those who play 40+ hrs/week, & divide their time between RP/crafting/monster bashing.. it's not going to affect them an awful lot. Collector quests are restricted per/week anyway, & crafting is a slow steady trickle of xp gain/loss (depending on lvls, etc).

What this change should encourage.. is more partying (yay!) which has got to be a good thing

Sarrena · Post by **Sarrena** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:38 pm

A thought, when the someone goes off world, lock the XP timer. Bob is at his 7k, he buggers off to Hala for the rest of the week and comes back. Bob still has to deal with his limiter.

To be honest I've only breached the 5k mark in a week once, and that was a crazy trip with Gak. Was a bloody marathon of trying to get out as one party member or another would crash in the worst spots ever again and again.

DanishPastry · Post by **DanishPastry** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:44 pm

PROS:

- Epic PCs won't completely kill the xp for lower level PCs when grouped.
- Weekly level cap assuring no one shoots through the (higher) levels.
- Although being towed by a high level PC can easily give a low level PC lots of XP the weekly cap assures that at least it can only be done every so often.

CONS:

- Can't find any. If someone are sad about not being able to get more than 7,000 xp per week then they should seriously consider if ever Avlis was the right place for them to be playing.

( Has the Gnomefather redeemed himself..? )

Chasnor · Post by **Chasnor** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:56 pm

Alrighty folks: Here is the basic concept, let me spell it out simply as I had a hand in designing this concept (not coding though, I'm not that smart).

The 7k/week cap is designed so that if you get this week in and week out, you will advance no faster than the rate at which the Avlis Team and CoPaP Teams have long ago decided was right. We do have timelines for certain benchmarks in mind, this was far from arbitrary.

Yes, with quests, crafting, and cookies, you can advance more quickly than this. We factored that idea in. Only a small percentage of the PC's out there will get 7k/week every week.

Almost everyone gets more combat XP over the long term. Trust me, the math works. Non-PGers will level faster! Wow, kinda nice for us, eh? PGers will level slower unless they go offworld to grind. It will be noticed, DB lookups or not. I doubt non PGers/grinders will ever hit this cap more than once or twice.

The only people that get screwed by the cap are the PGers that can just get screwed and deal with it or go away. Kinda a matter of point of view here. I do recall this was tagged an RP world, not a grindhouse.

The weekly cap was chosen for a number of reasons. Daily penalizes the folks that marathon on the weekend but don't play during the weeks. Hourly penalizes everyone but zombies. Monthly involved more complicated math and held no real advantage over weekly. A yearly total cap could be considered in addition to weekly to catch those that slipped through or went offworld to grind. Too much hassle, we'll notice them anyways.

This whole thing was designed with YOU in mind. How sick are you of seeing someone hit Epic in 3 months and 40 in 6 or 8? Wow, now that they have a ton of levels they suddenly want to stop and RP. And by RP I mean butt into every plot and guild they can find a way into. No fun for Players, no fun for DMs.

In my own personal opinion, if you really think this system is going to make the game less enjoyable for you somehow, you should consider playing elsewhere or rethinking what constitutes fun for you here.

Lastly---This is being tested, by you the Players, not by QA. Why? So we can get a greater volume of feedback from the people it affects most. Unlike previous changes, we're being very open about this one. Like I said, this is for YOU as much as the Team.

Discuss away-New Feedback only thread started.

Marleh · Post by **Marleh** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:23 pm

All animals dropped creature parts (could be food for the lagmonster perhaps?).

It's food for something, or should be.

Examine and test these drops, see what happens.

&.. as someone in the party commented.. are dyes the new alcohol?

Could you be a bit more specific, what creatures dropped dyes?

yorlik · Post by **yorlik** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:36 pm

Marleh wrote:Could you be a bit more specific, what creatures dropped dyes?

Bugbears in Warren Caves.

jordenk · Post by **jordenk** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:38 pm

Khaelindra wrote:
Nob wrote:
PlasmaJohn wrote:
Nob wrote:If folks are going off world regularly to circumvent the cap, it would be fairly obvious based on their levelling habits.
The only tracking of portal usage that I'm aware of are the vaultster server logs which would require some extra effort to retrieve and parse along with some retention issues.
No need for Vaultster logs.

Just pull up the character's login history and see how quickly they're leveling. Simply comparing database entries a week apart or even a month apart would give enough of an idea on who might be going out to get around the cap.
Sounds good, although time-intensive for the Team. Would it be possible to automate the inability to circumvent the xp-cap?

Nasty solution: simply treat monster xp like crafting xp with regard to going off-world... it doesn't stick upon returning.

Not-so-nasty solution (possible?): top the xp upon returning off at the cap that would also be the limit if the PC had not gone off-world, i.e. make the cap hard regardless of whether the PC kills a monster or enters the world. That would (from both sides) encourage people to stick to one world as main and others as excursions but prohibit xp-expeditions for the sake of xp.

Only problem i see with this is. Say someone hits.... 4thousand in avlis in half a week. I know for one that someplaces I go one crawl will get that. Now they plane travel,do some rp say do a DM event and get some cookies/scripted quest, when they come back, whos to say what portino of the xp is to be blocked out because it was due to grinding and not dming/scripted quests.

Sarrena · Post by **Sarrena** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:47 pm

Depends how the meter is recorded. It its done on a per kill basis here, the meter would be completely seperate.

badjabadjabadja · Post by **badjabadjabadja** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:04 pm

... dyes

also minotaurs in the minotaur caves.. & some of the bandits in that general area. The dyes was brown, tan-brown, muddy brown... um.. at least i assumed they was dyes

aquasoup · Post by **aquasoup** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:31 pm

I have no idea if I'd ever reach the cap for monster kills, I truly suspect not, but nevertheless, in a purely arbitrary sense - weekly caps are far better for people with 9-5 40ish hour weeks than anyone who isn't in that bracket.

Military, self-employed/contract workers, students, housewives (in/out of school holidays) everyone in school etc etc. Many people may not have exactly the same schedules week in and week out - as it is the weekly quest xp already caters heavily to those whose hours per quarter can be uniformly doled out every week, and pretty badly to those outside of that.

Quarterly caps is very simple maths multiply by 13, divide by 13 - there's no issue and it advantages no1, it merely avoids penalising some.

You may write this comment off as someone advocating powergaming in a short space of time and take it as offensive, but if person X spends the same time rp-ing and hunting per quarter as anyone else just not on evenings after 9-5 schedule, should they be penalised for not being 9-5?

Btw In a couple of years I've never had any character make it over 8th level, but you can include me in the erratic schedule bracket, so you know my own self interest or lack of it.

Snooty elitist remarks aimed at the faintest hint of PG may be the norm for RP discussions, but I suggest to you that anyone who truly has no interest in developing their character would be using a chatroom or IM service. PG isn't black n white it's a scale of greys.

Everthing else about it sounds good, especiially better partyability for lowbies (like myself) - choosing your social circle by RP is always superior than having dictated barriers from some database.

thetamlyone · Post by **thetamlyone** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:46 pm

Sounds wonderful! I don't have time to test right now, but the abillity to help lowbies without killing their xp (or hang out with epic friends without losing mine!) is nice. I train new Maidens weekly, and it always makes me feel guilty that they almost never get any xp from it. I know the training is mostly for RP purposes, but if you only have so much time to play, you don't want to lose a whole night of character growth via xp. Kudos to everybody who did all this work!!!!

Cerridwyn · Post by **Cerridwyn** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:00 pm

as someone who for the last 4months or so has basically had all the time in the world to play...let me say i think it's great.

honestly...i play 7 days a week. i play mainly two characters. my play isn't determined by my lvl (and shouldn't be for anyone). most people--even those of us who spend a lot of time on avlis--won't notice the cap. those that do will probably go off to play something else.

the idea about being able to party rocks!! there are so many guilds training lowbies...it's nice to not feel like they're being penalized for hanging with the epic characters. and actually this will help RP in the long run as the lower lvl characters spend time with the higher ones they'll learn the lore of avlis much better...and probably be more in the spirit of what this PW is all about.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:40 pm

spool32 wrote:
Dirk Cutlass wrote:I just retired my gnome ranger Fred (again ) because of the difficulty in leveling him. Basically, nothing he could kill gave any XP. The only way to XP from kills was to party-up and be tracker / scout, etc. But this new system would mean he would get same XP as if he was soloing, so basically back to no XP again.

...

It won't affect Fred, because he's retired. But it will affect characters like Fred, i.e. the ones that aren't "Power Builds".

Just my thoughts.
This logic is flawed.

Fred goes out solo. He's the gimpiest build in the world, so he can only kill crop rats... but they no longer give him any XP. He tries to solo the LRC and dies instantly.

Next, Fred parties up under the old system and wtfpwns the LRC with his mates. He gets 500xp altogether, based on the arcane calculations and whatever else determines XP currently.

Now the new system is implemented, and Fred parties up again for a trip to the LRC. Does he die instantly? No, his party mops the floor with Master Po's asses. Fred, instead of getting the 500 XP, gets whatever XP he would have gotten if he'd managed to somehow solo every monster in the place.

Your assertion that Fred's "solo XP gain" in a party trolling an epic dungeon would be equal to Fred's pathetic ability to actually solo something is incorrect.

-spool32

Of course you are right, but there is an assumption here, and that is that I can find a party to go to LRC with. What if I can't? My game time is very short, usually by the time I've met people, bought provisions and gone to the dungeon, it's time for me to log off. I actually can't recall the last time I actually finished a dungeon. So, the truth is a lot of my time is spent soloing or small "sorties" into dungeons, but then I have to bail after 30mins or so. I know Avlis is RP server and I am supposed to enjoy all my time RPing with folks, but the fact is it is a D&D RP server, and occasionaly I like to "flex my muscles" (or lack of in Fred's case

) and do a little D&D.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is this:

The well-intentioned attempts that Team Make make to stop PG, don't just affect PGers, everyone is affected to some extent. Unfortunately, with the current system it means that I can not gain XP easily with Fred. Fact is I brought him back out of retirement and spent approx 4 wks playing fairly reglularly before eventually managing to scrape together the ~ 1500 xp I needed to make it to lvl 15. Now that's a pretty low leveling rate by anyone's standards. And it is a result of the current XP system... a system which was supposed to stop people getting Epic levls too quickly ... well, it certainly stopped Fred right in his tracks.

Now, maybe it is different in new system. I don't know... and actually I'm not going to bother testing with Fred (he's got cool background and concept... but he's just not cut out for Avlis... he's already packed his bags and is heading off to some server called Gimpland... where crop rats don't spawn more than 2 at a time to give him a chance

).

But seriously, I just wanted to make sure that people realised that the anti-PG formula doesn't just affect PGers.

Personally, I'd have been happier with something like the 7k/week cap (or < 7k), but removing the low-end cap on XP per kill (i.e. no more 0xp kills, even getting 1-4 xp per kill makes it feel like you are making progress).

Chasnor · Post by **Chasnor** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:44 pm

You get XP for every kill. Kill 7000 crop rats a week for 1xp each. Enjoy. Everyone gets more XP until they hit the cap.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:20 am

Awesome changes, imo.

Dirk: As Deider posted a page back, there may be more changes than is easy to understand just by reading the info. about the overall change. In other words, it may be worth finding out by testing whether Fred has an easier or harder time getting xp now, even solo. Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Post by **Alexandru Stanicu** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:06 am

There were many intentions behind this modification of the system.
We want to decrease the amount of PG'ing while still allowing for reasonable progression.
We wanted to remove the penalty for parting up with someone too far apart in levels and simply encourage people to party. (this also removes the exploit in the party code that allows max XP to be obtained for all if the level differences and monster CR's is just right)
We wanted to add something to the drops so that even epics with tons of loot and gold would be interested in the drops (at least a little) as well as add some thing that are useful to lower level characters.
We wanted to add a little realism to the bad guys by putting the drops on them before the battle so that they have a chance to use the loot...ie different wpns, scrolls, potions etc. It should spice things up a little.

Due to the response last time the XP system was modified (ok the time before. I upped the "sliders" on XP, so that more is given out, a while back and almost no one noticed, or if they did they didn't mention it) there was a massive "Hissy fit" from the player base.
I wanted this to get a good live test so that you guys can get a feel for it, and we can find things that need tweaked.
This update is not set in stone yet, but its pretty close. please test and be constructive in your feedback.

Oh and BTW, yes we know that people can go off world and get XP once they have hit the cap. We have heard that there are "sweet spots" on other worlds (yes we have some too, and we also are working on them) where a ton of XP can be gained in a very short time.
Thing is, the rule on PG'ers is to ignore them. By setting things so that we can reward the bulk of our players with a better XP system, while preventing abuse of the same, we re able to ignore the PG'ers... at long last.

Game on.

-Alex

Grunt · Post by **Grunt** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:08 am

Chas'nor wrote:You get XP for every kill. Kill 7000 crop rats a week for 1xp each. Enjoy. Everyone gets more XP until they hit the cap.

BTW: You get 15XP for killing an NPC named "Rolan Fyne". He's got some decent AI, but a level 4 could outsmart him.

If you take the 7k cap...and ONLY got combat XP. No crafting, no quests, no DMs throwing a cookie your way it breaks down like this:

(all weeks are total from roll-up and more or less rounded to .25)
Level 05: 1.5 weeks
Level 10: 6.5 weeks
Level 15: 15 weeks (almost 4 months)
Level 20: 27.25 weeks (almost 7 months)
Level 25: 43 weeks (about 10 months)
Level 30: 62.25 weeks (1 year 2.5 months)
Level 35: 85 weeks (about 1 year 8 months)
Level 40: 111.5 weeks (about 2 years 2 months)

This is if you got the maximum every single week.

I'm really glad about the lack of party suffering, because I used to bail on parties when I felt like I was killing the XP for them. It sucked, but it was how it was. Now I can go with them again without guilt.

So thanks for that.

zsenf · Post by **zsenf** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:15 am

This sounds like the perfect way to limit the folks who kill just for the exp and have no IC reason for it, stops folks from being towed for mass exp, and I don't have to feel bad for grouping with someone and causing them to get 0exp for stuff that should be a major threat to them. I'm going to hop onto the test server and see if it's working properly.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:56 am

Grunt wrote: I'm really glad about the lack of party suffering, because I used to bail on parties when I felt like I was killing the XP for them. It sucked, but it was how it was. Now I can go with them again without guilt. So thanks for that.

agreed. also, if i want to go and smash something until it turns into a quivering mass of flesh and bone fragments, nothing's going to stop me. Xp cap or not. It's not so much the xp i find rewarding, it's being able to totally destroy little characters in a computer game.

i'm wierd.

but yeah, big props for encouraging party play.