Now Discussion of "Test Avlis XP and Loot"

VETT SCALES L7 · Post by **VETT SCALES L7** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:35 pm

I haven't read this whole thread so I've no idea if this has been suggested but level capping the collector quests at 15-20 in conjunction with a weekly xp cap would stop abuse somewhat in those areas. Also turning /reset quests into weeklys would help as well.

spool32 · Post by **spool32** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:42 pm

Calzier wrote:One simple idea for one example might be to reward reading in libraries (character is area designated as a library, displaying the reading animation)...

There exists ingame now a way to do something almost identical. Rewarding XP for "idle hours" is unrealistic when Alt-Tab exists, though.

Collector quests are capped at a level equal to the number of unique items of the type the collector wants, or else have an eventual upper boundary. There are no completely open-ended unregulated perpetual collector quests that I know if.

If there are some YOU know of, please PM me.

-spool32

jordenk · Post by **jordenk** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:43 pm

KinX wrote:
bolo wrote:I'm still a bit in shock that a 7000xp cap is considered a lot. Who the hell is able to get 7000xp in a week? Hell, personally I'd call someone getting that much a powergamer!

I'd think something like half that would be more in line. Back in the "old" days wasn't the norm considered to be like 500xp a day from casual play?
Well, if you decide to do the entire nightfang in one day you can easily get about that much xp in a day. although i've only ever done that once and it took approx 6 hrs and it's likely i'll never do it again.

I know of at least one other area that's like that as well. But again, it took the better part of a day and will most likely never do that again as well.

I guess if you had plenty of time on your hands and nothing better to do with your life, you can aim for 1K xp a day. One thousand crop rats a day isn't as bad as trying for seven thousand in a weekend.

It depends largely on your character. If you and say one other person can do a really hard epic dungeon crawl that usually takes a party of 4-5 higher levels, then you will probably get more XP. seriously, ive done nightfang in like two hours... and im not even talking about rushing through it. I also agree with something someone said about how standing around chatting isnt everyones style. I like traveling with other pc's.. i like fighting with other pc's... rather than sitting on the floor staring at them as i spin the screen around non-stop. This is a RP server. But this is an action game, ans who says those two cant co-exist nicely and work...here it comes "together"

solitude_peace2 · Post by **solitude_peace2** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:44 pm

All in all, great changes.

I usually spend my time collecting ingredients and crafting, getting XP from the Loom and Fire Beetles. I can count the number of times I've been in a Party on one hand. Today Janus (lvl 6) adn Shayra (lvl 14?) went out and it seemed like both got the chance to contribute and reap a reward. This may be the first time Janus has gotten Party XP.

As for slamming the door at 7000XP/wk, why not just pop a flag on that PC (visible to DMs) and let the DMs deal with it IG? This could deal with all of the ways that folks are going to get around that cap.

DT

DoomsDay1000 · Post by **DoomsDay1000** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:27 pm

there good changes

In my opinion, if you guys are going to do something this major that effects everyone, restart everyone at level 1, start it fresh so everyone has IT fair half of these people don't give a crap about the exp because they can already pwned everything.
i know of a few poeple that have a few characters that are level 30+... who knows that they didn't powergame to get there?

In my opinon... EVERYONE powergame now and then, and it is most unlikely for one powergamer to kill everything by him self

NayalaGelbert · Post by **NayalaGelbert** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:41 pm

DoomsDay1000 wrote:In my opinion, if you guys are going to do something this major that effects everyone, restart everyone at level 1

Not that I expect this suggestion to be seriously considered, but, to be honest... I would probably simply quit. I have one character, and I've put a lot of work into her. I am not ready to retire her, and I am looking forward to her ongoing development. Putting her back to level one would be tantamount to wiping her from existence in my mind.

spool32 · Post by **spool32** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:50 pm

jordenk wrote:
KinX wrote:
bolo wrote:I'm still a bit in shock that a 7000xp cap is considered a lot. Who the hell is able to get 7000xp in a week? Hell, personally I'd call someone getting that much a powergamer!

I'd think something like half that would be more in line. Back in the "old" days wasn't the norm considered to be like 500xp a day from casual play?
Well, if you decide to do the entire nightfang in one day you can easily get about that much xp in a day. although i've only ever done that once and it took approx 6 hrs and it's likely i'll never do it again.

I know of at least one other area that's like that as well. But again, it took the better part of a day and will most likely never do that again as well.

I guess if you had plenty of time on your hands and nothing better to do with your life, you can aim for 1K xp a day. One thousand crop rats a day isn't as bad as trying for seven thousand in a weekend.
It depends largely on your character. If you and say one other person can do a really hard epic dungeon crawl that usually takes a party of 4-5 higher levels, then you will probably get more XP. seriously, ive done nightfang in like two hours... and im not even talking about rushing through it.

If you did the Nightfang lair front to back in 2 hours, you were rushing through it. You can't even take the descriptions on the placeables, print them out, and read straight through them in 2 hours... there's too much text. It takes more than one hour just to walk through every area, with all the doors unlocked and no spawns at all.

Seriously... slow down and enjoy the world. Even the shaahesk minidungeon takes an hour to go through, if you're RPing and examining the stuff along the way.

Aeveras · Post by **Aeveras** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:59 pm

DoomsDay1000 wrote:In my opinion, if you guys are going to do something this major that effects everyone, restart everyone at level 1

This won't ever happen.

- Aeveras

Knightlight · Post by **Knightlight** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:29 pm

Why change something that isn't broken???

when i first started playing in 2004 I made an innocent comment or so i thought about why did i get no xp for a dwarf merc. when i have to use 100 heal kits and potions to over come it and I died 90% of the time i tried. I was sent several degrading personal PM's from DM and other players which after I realized the hornets nest I stumbled into tried to put out of my mind and cry myself to sleep at night. I was told several times that the system was in place for specific reasons and that it would never change as many people put countless hours into its creation and to have me even suggest that it wasn't meeting my needs was an insult to the team and if i did not like it go play somewhere else.

now almost three years later I just reached lvl 22 which as i figure it is roughly 1700 xp a week.
I spend alot of time trying to RP but frankly i don't think i pull it off real well mostly because i have a charisma of 10 in RL and IC.
The xp system as it works now and has been explained to me really works. any xp lost by partying with higher levels can be made up in better drops the higher levels usually get and split with the party.
Dm events has all sorts of levels of players participating and the xp is given by dm cookies which in the end work out to be more then any xp the lowbie would have gotten cumulutively per kill.

*the dms have done a great job of appropriate compensation. *

Maybe there is a burden im not seeing on the dm's and they want to streamline the process but i think capping xp is bad for players that are not in control of the times they can play. Several players and a DM i know currently are in a move where they only have dial up access, and they can not play at this time. they are being left behind as they are away, but that doesn't mean if they do get back into the game and want to spend 80 hours in a week to catch up .. since technically just because a player can't play doesn't mean a character isn't doing anything... they should be able to do that ... playing 4 hours a week and getting 7000xp is very different then someone that plays 90-100 hours a week and gets 7000xp...
I know i have exceeded the 7000 xp limit in some weeks because of things going on.. training with the army coupled with parties for adventure and then gathering expeditions for rare components, those high xp weeks happen not because of PGing but because of IC life. i think setting a number puts to much of an emphisis on it when maybe the same energy could be put into detailing out other parts of the game. as the XP thing has been a beaten dead horse since before 2004.
((see i really did listen))
a FOIG is there is a spot where characters can get 2500-3000 xp in about 40-45 mins... currently this can be done with another area nearby and in about 2 hours 4500-5000 xp can be gotten... ((it can be done faster with wails of the banshee so i have been told by a DM who will remain nameless)) doing this IMHO is powergaming and well i can only point out im only lvl 22 after almost three RL years...
Furhtermore.. because there has to be a furthermore after all that .. any player that gets pissed off because someone levels faster them then is a powergamer... otherwise why the heck would you care...

JUST DO YOU....

Additionally... because there has to be an additionally to a furthermore... if someone powergames and the dms/guildleaders don't like it then when they get to lvl 40 and finally want to participate don't let them.... tell them they are to old to begin the training...

GimpGenius · Post by **GimpGenius** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:49 am

From the testing I've done so far, the changes don't seem to be a major problem. If people want to powergame, they'll powergame till they get bored and move on to an MMO where there's almost no chance of DM involvement. Same with the loot changes; they're nothing earth-shattering, and the possibility for interaction with the new items opens up a larger chance for crafting RP, as well as a possibility for new recipes and alternative uses for item drops.

What it all boils down to, I think, is that a lot of us confuse level advancement with character advancement; and the latter's where Avlis really shines. A level 1 PC in most other worlds/MMOs is an insignificant number that's shelling out $15 a month. On Avlis, a level 1 PC, through character development, can literally change the world.

Plus it's free of charge and free of goony fanboi jackasses.

Sephira · Post by **Sephira** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:58 am

GimpGenius wrote:Plus it's free of charge and free of goony fanboi jackasses.

But I like fanbois

Kerrick · Post by **Kerrick** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:44 am

Ditto. I think when you start trying to make code to deal with exploiters you get in a no win situation and just start chasing your tail.For every new rule you come up with or code you write, they will find a way around it, then you have to come up with yet another fucking rule, or another fucking piece of code. Meanwhile, things that could use some attention, like the Underdark server, get tabled.

I know this quite well - I'm a d20 designer, and have been for the last 5 years or so. One thing I've learned is that you can't cover every single loophole, or predict every single eventuality - like I said in a discussion in IRC today, no matter what kind of a system you make, someone will find a way to exploit it. However, that doesn't mean that I (or any other system designer) should use that as an excuse to make a system and declare it "good enough". You close the obvious loopholes, test it rigorously, close the holes the testers find, and then release it, and let the DMs take care of the people who find other loopholes and exploit them. That's what I do with my material, and that's what the Avlis designers should do too. A PC doing the 40-level dash in 6 months should have sent up all kinds of red flags - the team should've been falling all over themselves trying to figure out how he did it, and closing those exploitive loopholes. But what happened? Everyone congratulated him for hitting L40! Did he get bored and leave? Nope - he plays a new PC. Want to know how he did it? Grinding those quests. Hmm....

DoomsDay1000 wrote:In my opinion, if you guys are going to do something this major that effects everyone, restart everyone at level 1
Not that I expect this suggestion to be seriously considered, but, to be honest... I would probably simply quit. I have one character, and I've put a lot of work into her. I am not ready to retire her, and I am looking forward to her ongoing development. Putting her back to level one would be tantamount to wiping her from existence in my mind.

Hey, why not just wipe the server vault instead? EVERYONE DIES. Start up new PCs at L1.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:51 am

bolo wrote: Ditto. I think when you start trying to make code to deal with exploiters you get in a no win situation and just start chasing your tail.For every new rule you come up with or code you write, they will find a way around it, then you have to come up with yet another fucking rule, or another fucking piece of code. Meanwhile, things that could use some attention, like the Underdark server, get tabled.

Well clearly the "ignore the PGers and they'll go away" approach has worked SO well over the last two years that it's proven to be...oh wait, no it hasn't. It's precisely because it IS an issue that it becomes necessary to come up with rules to address it. Remember there didn't used to be a sexual harassment rule on Avlis, either. Or a lot of other things. The mechanical addition of an xp cap really is rather simple from a coding perspective. The suggestion that "they'll just find a way around it so why bother" really doesn't make sense. Yeah people will always find loopholes, but that doesn't mean you remove rules all together. It'd be like suggesting why have laws at all since someone's bound to break them eventually, right?

As for the second part about "taking up resources" you're assuming (rather falsely) that the resources being put into an xp and loot code (the latter of which is more interesting IMO) would otherwise be used for something else.

This is rarely the case since the type of work that goes into one or the other are so different that you'd have a hard time comparing them at all.

girlysprite · Post by **girlysprite** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:46 am

I agree that it is good to have some new things implemented against it. Of course it wont remove PG. Nothing will. Its no use to try to find ways to remove it alltogether, but keeping it in bay, thats is good.
And even while we tried to say ' Oh, PG'ers will get ignored anyways and they'll leave' They actually dont.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:55 am

girlysprite wrote: And even while we tried to say ' Oh, PG'ers will get ignored anyways and they'll leave' They actually dont.

How many pg'ers that were playing back in 2002 are still playing? how many pg'ers in 2004? Hell, how many lev 40 characters were there a year go that are still active today? Would you label any of those characters as pg'ers?

There's always going to be pg'ers, if there was someone continually pg'ing to 40, dumping that char and then starting again then good for them. But they're char's aren't really going to make that much impact on Avlis if they keep dumping them right?

Regardless if PGers leave or stay, it honestly doesn't bother me if someone levels to 40 in 6 weeks. It never has bothered me and it never will because i frankly don't give a rat's arse. What i want to ask is, how does it affect the playerbase if someone does hit max level in 6 weeks?

If/when the cap gets implemented and someone hits max level in the smallest amount of time possible, are you going to get angry and point the finger and scream POWERGAMER?

Will he be able to bully his way into plots? yes, but to a degree. Everyone knows if a DM wants you dead, you're going to die. If there's plot related combat, then i can see him/her plowing everything down and making it not so fun for everyone else. But if it's plot related combat there's going to be a DM watching. Will this unknown lev 40 get all the kickass rewards? i doubt it.

Obviously if xp holes/exploits are found they need to be plugged.

But i must be blind or ignorant or something, because i honestly can't see why people get upset over what they perceive as powergaming. Honestly, if someone hits lev 40 in 6 weeks, cap or no cap, how does it affect YOU? how does it affect your enjoyment of Avlis? Can someone enlighten me?

Calzier · Post by **Calzier** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:13 am

spool32 wrote:
Calzier wrote:One simple idea for one example might be to reward reading in libraries (character is area designated as a library, displaying the reading animation)...
There exists ingame now a way to do something almost identical. Rewarding XP for "idle hours" is unrealistic when Alt-Tab exists, though.

-spool32

that's the issue right there - on a RP server, there are no "idle hours". If it's IC for one character to spend 24 game hours sitting and meditating, and for another to spend 24 hours in 'hunting and killing" then both are equally IC, equally roleplayed, and yet only the later gets XP.

It's worse than that though, because the former character is later forced - by the system - to either kill, craft or run errands (BTW, fedex quests on Kuras only work for low level PCs), none of which may be IC actions. IE is forced to PG rather than RP.

yorlik · Post by **yorlik** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:18 am

Powergaming is level advancement without character development.
It is possible to stop or slow down level advancement.
It is not possible to enforce character development.

A consequent way to control this could only be a team/DM approved level
unlock above a certain level, like at levels 16, 21, 26, 31, ....

Better than controling character development by this is always, of course
to try being an example of good RP - whatever "good RP" is.

Tigg · Post by **Tigg** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:42 am

Calzier wrote:It's worse than that though, because the former character is later forced - by the system - to either kill, craft or run errands (BTW, fedex quests on Kuras only work for low level PCs), none of which may be IC actions. IE is forced to PG rather than RP.

Well... only forced if they want to level faster than cookies might bring them.

Though those who are content to stay at a very low level despite a lot of IG time are few and far between, it's true.

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:44 am

Will he be able to bully his way into plots? yes, but to a degree. Everyone knows if a DM wants you dead, you're going to die. If there's plot related combat, then i can see him/her plowing everything down and making it not so fun for everyone else. But if it's plot related combat there's going to be a DM watching. Will this unknown lev 40 get all the kickass rewards? i doubt it.

The problem here is that the level 40 pg'er will make the guy who started at the same time (and is now at level 15) insignificant in action. Either the DM has to up the ante with the monsters so much they'll wtfpwn the level 15 guy if they accidentally glance in his direction, or the DM has to resort to some other trickery.

It's like reading lord of the rings to see a guy named xGandolphx come flying in with a rocket-boosted robot eagle and snatch the ring from Frodo to take it to mt. doom... and that guy is actually Fatty Bolger who's been powergaming while Frodo and pals were rp'ing in Rivendell.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:24 am

Tangleroot wrote:
The problem here is that the level 40 pg'er will make the guy who started at the same time (and is now at level 15) insignificant in action. Either the DM has to up the ante with the monsters so much they'll wtfpwn the level 15 guy if they accidentally glance in his direction, or the DM has to resort to some other trickery.

It's like reading lord of the rings to see a guy named xGandolphx come flying in with a rocket-boosted robot eagle and snatch the ring from Frodo to take it to mt. doom... and that guy is actually Fatty Bolger who's been powergaming while Frodo and pals were rp'ing in Rivendell.

yeah i figured that'd be the major problem. In which case it does impact on another player's enjoyment.

Damn that Fatty Bolger

Deider · Post by **Deider** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:44 am

KinX wrote:
Tangleroot wrote:
The problem here is that the level 40 pg'er will make the guy who started at the same time (and is now at level 15) insignificant in action. Either the DM has to up the ante with the monsters so much they'll wtfpwn the level 15 guy if they accidentally glance in his direction, or the DM has to resort to some other trickery.

It's like reading lord of the rings to see a guy named xGandolphx come flying in with a rocket-boosted robot eagle and snatch the ring from Frodo to take it to mt. doom... and that guy is actually Fatty Bolger who's been powergaming while Frodo and pals were rp'ing in Rivendell.
yeah i figured that'd be the major problem. In which case it does impact on another player's enjoyment.

Damn that Fatty Bolger

What Tangles and Nob said. The idea that PGers somehow exist entirely outside of the rest of the community is a giant mythical cloud of bullshit. It doesn't affect you? Maybe it doesn't bother you when someone hits epic in a few weeks or months, then decides to start RPing, joins a guild and maybe becomes its leader, and starts to get DM love and custom rewards from DMs. That's DM time nobody else is getting - that might not bother you, but it bothers many, and I'd have to say that feeling of being shafted is justified.

But let's put all that aside. It's when a PGer kills an RPer and loots shit that he got from a DM that wasn't marked plot - because he had no chance to beat the epic PGer's PC in combat because he's, well, epic - it's then that the whole concept of 'ignoring PGers' goes out the bloody window. This can happen, does happen, and will happen again. And by the rules and regulations of Avlis it's totally legit and legal - so suck it up RPer, and kiss that custom item goodbye! Try and ignore that.

This really has nothing to do with the XP changes, though - other people have outlined the reasons for those better than me. Namely, letting people party up without worry and getting within CoPaP regulations with regard to level advancement.

Calzier · Post by **Calzier** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:23 pm

Tangleroot wrote:...actually Fatty Bolger who's been powergaming while Frodo and pals were rp'ing in Rivendell.

While I agree with the rest of this post, it (obviously) needs to be pointed out again, that sitting-around-talking DOES NOT EQUAL roleplay.

Think about the example given. Samwise Gamgee is a 'local' - he's a gardner who likes a drink with a few other uncomplicated hobbits and dreams of elves. While he grows during the LOTR story (and in many ways is arguably the hero, although not the protagonist) at Rivendell he is still shy, sticking to hobbit company, and both in awe of , and suspicious of the elves (and men).

So, in RPG terms, if the player of Sam Gamgee spends time at rivendell "sitting around at chatting to elves" (=sitting at elf-gate in the Avlis context) he is not RPing, or at least not doing it well, as his actions are not IC for Sam Gamgee.

Someone playing a Beorn PC (from the Hobbit) should spend his time being largely antisocial and probably in the eyes of many, PGing (ie killing lots of stuff) with a touch of crafting on the side. But that would be IC for that character and so actually good RP.

Talking-a-bit-before-going-to-dungeon does not equate to roleplaying.

gwydion2 · Post by **gwydion2** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:52 pm

I think you are missing the point on what was meant by "idle hours". If the xp system rewarded people purely on how long they logged in, you'd get people logging into their inn room and going afk all day while they went to work. Lagging up the server in the process.

Most systems have loopholes, but a system based on time logged in practically waves a sign saying 'please exploit'. The team would end up spending more time policing this than making the world fun for the rest of us. It simply won't fly.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:54 pm

The fact that an experience script thread can last 5 pages and could easily extend 5 more is proof enough that it can and does affect the community in a negative way. There is some legitimate and aptly name powergaming that occurs. For a lot of people however, the "powergaming" label amounts to "X player levels faster than me. This in turn creates jealousy which leads to a lot of community ill-will. When a thread like this turns up, all of a sudden several people who are good honest Roleplayers suddenly get "Am I powergaming thoughts?" This affects them in-game. It might be completely IC for them to hit dungeons more often but they are concerned about how they will be perceived in the community and chose not to do so.

In other words, the whole powergaming question and the social stigma attached to it causes everyone, powergamers and legitimate roleplayers alike a lot more grief than anyone particularly wants to deal with.

solitude_peace2 · Post by **solitude_peace2** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:37 pm

So is there a way to flag someone who exceeds a given XP limit (say, 7000xp/wk)? Perhaps they grow a tail (everyone can see it) or a something like glowing Monk eyes that only a DM can see.

In the first case (a tail) we could all see it and meta-game away.

In the second case (a Dm-visible glow) we let the Team handle the PC either in a RP or OOC.

DT