Forbidden spell schools and multiclassing

[Isengrim]

I wanted to answer Fifty's question here:

posting.php?mode=reply&t=83461

but I realised I do not know the answer to the following:

Assuming you have a wizard PC that is a specialist (has a forbidden school of magic), if you take levels in sorcerer, would the PC be able to cast (as a sorcerer) spell from the school of magic forbidden to the wizard?

[Fire Monkey]

Also would it be cheesey to do so even if the game engine allowed you to do it?

[Khaelindra]

The game engine allows for it, each class is totally independent.

[spool32]

I could see how you might RP having a forbidden spell school as Sorc that you can cast as Wiz... RP that you just don't have the innate skill for that school so you decided to study it instead.

-spool32

[Fire Monkey]

I could see how you might RP having a forbidden spell school as Sorc that you can cast as Wiz... RP that you just don't have the innate skill for that school so you decided to study it instead.

-spool32

Sorc's don't have forbidden spell schools, only wizards. I would assume that for a Wizard there is a very strong IC (practical, intellectual and possibly moral) reason why a spell school is forbidden from use. If you took Sorc levels and then cast spells from your forbidden school "just because you can", that would seem like major cheese to me. Casting spells from a forbidden school would be effectively turning your back on our wizards training etc.

[robocod]

I could see how you might RP having a forbidden spell school as Sorc that you can cast as Wiz... RP that you just don't have the innate skill for that school so you decided to study it instead.

-spool32

Sorc's don't have forbidden spell schools, only wizards. I would assume that for a Wizard there is a very strong IC (practical, intellectual and possibly moral) reason why a spell school is forbidden from use. If you took Sorc levels and then cast spells from your forbidden school "just because you can", that would seem like major cheese to me. Casting spells from a forbidden school would be effectively turning your back on our wizards training etc.

Nah! Come off it. The wizard specialises in one school and as a result of game balance (or whatever the reason) they get penalised in one as well. It just means they didn't bother to take that lesson or something. The inate magic part of them (sorc) still works though.

So a Wizard/Sorc who specialises in Illusions: The wizard part of her can make really good illusions and knows how the spell works and has refined it. She hasn't a clue how charm person works though (forbidden school is Enchantment), but the inate magic part of her can still do it.

It is no more cheese that the whole wizard/sorc thing is in the first place. Which I think everyone agrees isn't cheesy at all, although it does require some "explaination" in RP terms.

[Fire Monkey]

Nah! Come off it. The wizard specialises in one school and as a result of game balance (or whatever the reason) they get penalised in one as well. It just means they didn't bother to take that lesson or something. The inate magic part of them (sorc) still works though.

So a Wizard/Sorc who specialises in Illusions: The wizard part of her can make really good illusions and knows how the spell works and has refined it. She hasn't a clue how charm person works though (forbidden school is Enchantment), but the inate magic part of her can still do it.

It is no more cheese that the whole wizard/sorc thing is in the first place. Which I think everyone agrees isn't cheesy at all, although it does require some "explaination" in RP terms.

Can't say I agree with you at all. Your explanation is that its done for game balance and that IC that means they didn't bother to take that lesson at mage school?

Whether for balance or not is irrelevant, it is how ICly it is interpreted and understood that is of importance. If we are looking for an IC explanation the "I forgot to go that class" just doesn't cut it IMO. We aren't talking about Hogwarts and naughty school children here. A learned mage may have been studying for 50-60 years if a human and for 500 years if an elf. Your telling me that the mage didn't quite find time within those decades and centuries?

Wouldn't it be more more interesting in developing the rp potential, culture and historical background of wizards if we understood there to be excellent political, moral, intellectual, historical etc. reasons for not casting from certain spell schools. Spell schools should matter in Avlis (and their characters and histories have been developed quite strongly in places like Zelvan Dur). Different spell schools amount to different perspectives in viewing arcane magic and the correct way in which it should be used. Necromancers are always a good example of this, but Illusioninsts, Evokers, Enchanters etc. should all really have as developed a cultural character as Necro's do. If spell schools matter, then it should matter which one you specialise in and equal it should matter which spell school you cannot cast from. Both define your character and the way in which they think magic can and should be used.

To me seeking explanation in this type of richness of detail is more rewarding and in keeping with the flavour of Avlis than deciding something is set because of ooc gameplay balance and then making up weak IC excuses to explain why it is the way it is.

[Fifty]

Without wanting to slate the Avlis system, I would find divisions along lines of spell schools much more interesting than the alignments.

[scribe]

Although this case is possible in the engine, you'd still have a pretty nerfy character when you were done. Wizards don't have to take a spell school, and then they can cast all of them which just in terms of efficiency would make more sense.

I think the generalist type of wizard makes explaining the restrictions on specialized spell schools ICly kind of hard to account for. There's nothing <i>inherently</i> stopping you, it's just if you want the extra spells (which mostly mattters at low levels, I think), you gotta accept the restriction. If the spell schools were organizations, then you ought to be able to quit them and learn the forbidden spells, but you can't.

I like Mereppi's approach: conjuration spells offend her, so she won't cast them. It makes as much sense as anything.

[Final Shinryuu]

Totally!
I like the "Opposed School" approach.
If you specialize in one, you devote a large part of yourself to embracing that school. Each school does have one or more opposed schools. So, I see it as the wizard, due to their total acceptance of one school, having an equal dislike of another.
In my PC's case, she sees everything in terms of the Transmutation school. You need something to transmute into something else. You can't just conjure things out of thin air! =D

[Isengrim]

I think it's not cheesy. The wizard's ban on specific school is a result of the extended study of another, opposing school. If, besides studying, he or she would be able to cast some innate spells, this could include also ones from the banned school - especially in case of situation where wizard would be a predominant class, and sorcerer only auxiliary.

[SplankNon]

Without wanting to slate the Avlis system, I would find divisions along lines of spell schools much more interesting than the alignments.

Now, that would be amazing. *drools at the thought*


From the IC reasoning for wizard specialisation given by Nob in this thread (viewtopic.php?t=83474&highlight=), though, it seems obvious that, following the same reasoning logically, a sorceror/wizard shouldn't be able to cast spell schools as a sorceror that he couldn't as a wizard - he still has the "schematic reasoning" of the specialised school, and still can't grasp the spell mechanics of the opposing one.

[Nob]

I'll give two thoughts on this matter...the first is an "IC" explaination and the second is an OOC thought on the subject as they're not exaclty compatible.

ICly the understanding of spells comes from how well one understands the language of magic and how that interplays with the energy of the Vortex drawn through some means (wizardry does this through one set of means that stem from memorization, while sorcery uses outsider blood and its link to the planes as a way of tapping the Vortex: note however, that they're both arcane spell casting classes that use the same TYPE of magic and same type of spells, they're not quite as different as some descriptions would have you believe), therefore you need to understand the "vocabulary" of a particular spell school to be able to cast it. Specialization essentially means you dwelve so deeply into the particular spell school that it gets to the point where its opposed school is incomprehensible to you.

This should mean that ICly, a sorcerer who is also a specialist wizard in a particular school should be unable to cast spells of the opposing school, even through innate means, simply because the understanding of that spell school is so foreign to them that they cannot cast arcane spells of that kind, or even activate items. (Note that even sorcerers can occassionally be forced to take a specialization such as with the FR: Incanitrix class which requires abjuration specialization)

Now here's the thing: Any spells you understood prior to taking a specialization you should be able to cast, but to do so simply remains a vistige of "habit" rather than any real understanding of the spell as it remains. So you already know how to cast it, but you wouldn't be able to learn additional spells of that school because you simply can't understand how to take the text you're presented and "translate" it into a spell...

OOCly: I'm not sure I really like the multi-classing rules regarding arcane caster classes in general, so I'm not really gonna complain if someone takes sorc to take spells from their forbidden schools.

[robocod]

Nah! Come off it. The wizard specialises in one school and as a result of game balance (or whatever the reason) they get penalised in one as well. It just means they didn't bother to take that lesson or something. The inate magic part of them (sorc) still works though.

So a Wizard/Sorc who specialises in Illusions: The wizard part of her can make really good illusions and knows how the spell works and has refined it. She hasn't a clue how charm person works though (forbidden school is Enchantment), but the inate magic part of her can still do it.

It is no more cheese that the whole wizard/sorc thing is in the first place. Which I think everyone agrees isn't cheesy at all, although it does require some "explaination" in RP terms.

Can't say I agree with you at all. Your explanation is that its done for game balance and that IC that means they didn't bother to take that lesson at mage school?

Whether for balance or not is irrelevant, it is how ICly it is interpreted and understood that is of importance. If we are looking for an IC explanation the "I forgot to go that class" just doesn't cut it IMO. We aren't talking about Hogwarts and naughty school children here. A learned mage may have been studying for 50-60 years if a human and for 500 years if an elf. Your telling me that the mage didn't quite find time within those decades and centuries?

Wouldn't it be more more interesting in developing the rp potential, culture and historical background of wizards if we understood there to be excellent political, moral, intellectual, historical etc. reasons for not casting from certain spell schools. Spell schools should matter in Avlis (and their characters and histories have been developed quite strongly in places like Zelvan Dur). Different spell schools amount to different perspectives in viewing arcane magic and the correct way in which it should be used. Necromancers are always a good example of this, but Illusioninsts, Evokers, Enchanters etc. should all really have as developed a cultural character as Necro's do. If spell schools matter, then it should matter which one you specialise in and equal it should matter which spell school you cannot cast from. Both define your character and the way in which they think magic can and should be used.

To me seeking explanation in this type of richness of detail is more rewarding and in keeping with the flavour of Avlis than deciding something is set because of ooc gameplay balance and then making up weak IC excuses to explain why it is the way it is.

Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. The only reason I raised it was because of your insistent suggestion that it was cheesy to play wiz/sorc or to cast from forbidden schools, etc. (Which BTW, has been confirmed to be "non cheesy" in Ask The Team). But I have no axe to grind, I don't even play a mage on Avlis anymore.

And, by the way, I agree with your statement about ...

Wouldn't it be more more interesting in developing the rp potential, culture and historical background of wizards if we understood there to be excellent political, moral, intellectual, historical etc.

... etc. All for that. But in your earlier posts you seemed much more determined to pin the cheese tag on wiz/sorcs, etc.

[Gairus]

My original specialist mage (Diviner, opposed school: Illusion) who then multiclassed to cleric was unable to cast scrolls from the illusion school, iirc. (... silence or somesuch, I no longer have the character in a character vault to check which it was).

That is for scrolls, not spells. Never tried those he had 9 wis

[Fire Monkey]

Also would it be cheesey to do so even if the game engine allowed you to do it?

I wasn't being insistent and I am always open minded. That is why my original post in this thread was a question not a statement. Questions provoke debate, which has been my intention throughout this and various other threads.

[robocod]

Also would it be cheesey to do so even if the game engine allowed you to do it?

I wasn't being insistent and I am always open minded. That is why my original post in this thread was a question not a statement. Questions provoke debate, which has been my intention throughout this and various other threads.

It was more a combination of posting in the other thread and this one too. To me (and I emphasise that as my very personal opinion) it seemed that you didn't like the wiz/sorc thing and the fact that they could specialise and still cast from their fobidden school, and the word "cheese" was mentioned a few times by you

So, I was just raising a counter-argument.

But, as I said I've no axe to grind on the matter. And in any case the debate about it is a positive thing.

Oh, and BTW, I did used to play a wizard on Avlis, who specialised in illusions, and my "excuse" for not knowing enhantments was that it was just wierd stuff that I never got the grasp off (basically, didn't understand the mechanics). I never used the "Hogwart's defence"

One final thing, I do actually agree that a wiz/sorc is a pretty wierd thing. But I take the pragmatic view, and if the engine allows it, and if someone wants to play one, and if someone wants to specialise and cast from forbidden schools, then there's not an awful lot you can do about it. But it is not cheesy to do so, and that is a fact.

Of course, I guess with spell-hooking there is actually the possibility of changing that! You know what Nob's like, he'll probably hack the code for that tonight

[Nob]

I'll give two thoughts on this matter...the first is an "IC" explaination and the second is an OOC thought on the subject as they're not exaclty compatible.

ICly the understanding of spells comes from how well one understands the language of magic and how that interplays with the energy of the Vortex drawn through some means (wizardry does this through one set of means that stem from memorization, while sorcery uses outsider blood and its link to the planes as a way of tapping the Vortex: note however, that they're both arcane spell casting classes that use the same TYPE of magic and same type of spells, they're not quite as different as some descriptions would have you believe), therefore you need to understand the "vocabulary" of a particular spell school to be able to cast it. Specialization essentially means you dwelve so deeply into the particular spell school that it gets to the point where its opposed school is incomprehensible to you.

This should mean that ICly, a sorcerer who is also a specialist wizard in a particular school should be unable to cast spells of the opposing school, even through innate means, simply because the understanding of that spell school is so foreign to them that they cannot cast arcane spells of that kind, or even activate items. (Note that even sorcerers can occassionally be forced to take a specialization such as with the FR: Incanitrix class which requires abjuration specialization)

Now here's the thing: Any spells you understood prior to taking a specialization you should be able to cast, but to do so simply remains a vistige of "habit" rather than any real understanding of the spell as it remains. So you already know how to cast it, but you wouldn't be able to learn additional spells of that school because you simply can't understand how to take the text you're presented and "translate" it into a spell...

OOCly: I'm not sure I really like the multi-classing rules regarding arcane caster classes in general, so I'm not really gonna complain if someone takes sorc to take spells from their forbidden schools.

Disclaimer: This is not an official team stance.

The only official ruling on the subject of spell specialization can be found:
Here.

[tindertwiggy]

I wanted to answer Fifty's question here:

posting.php?mode=reply&t=83461

but I realised I do not know the answer to the following:

Assuming you have a wizard PC that is a specialist (has a forbidden school of magic), if you take levels in sorcerer, would the PC be able to cast (as a sorcerer) spell from the school of magic forbidden to the wizard?

In game you can. But scrolls of the forbidden school will still be unuseable to you despite the sorc levels.

[Pathos Street]

Wizards memorize spells. Something in the nature of magic allows a wizard to memorize more spells if he doesn't cast spells of an opposing school.

Sorcerors do not memorize spells, but rather pull a given number of them from the source of magic by sheer force of personality (vortex, in this case).

Therefore, it stands to reason that a multiclassed specialist would technically be able to pull spells of any kind from the vortex, but would not be able to memorize those spells opposed. I.e. The difference is in the memorization, not the casting of the spells. No?