Blackdagger's NWN PW: The Avlis Project --Your input!

Post by **Orleron** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 1:49 pm

Ok all, by now you have probably heard the good news. NWN has gone gold, meaning it will be released within the month. What does this mean for Blackdagger?

It means that our persistent world (PW) will be going up shortly after the game comes out, and I am starting this thread to get your input on what you think the world should be like in terms of content, tone, and even player policy. So go to it. Give us your input.

A brief description of the world:

Avlis is a world of steel and magery where no one race or philosophy dominates, and heroes from all perspectives battle each other to further their goals.

Where can I get more detailed information?:

The forum on this board that deals with Avlis world construction is labelled "The Avlis Project". There is some more information on the world there, including some notes on a PnP campaign that's taking place there to prepare a storyline for the server.

How will the world start?:

We really have two choices here. We can delay the opening of the world until the builders get a significant amount of areas finished and then open it all at once. OR We can start small. We can put up one module or small area first. It won't be much, but it will get up quickly, and over time it will get built on. I am leaning towards starting small.

What sort of policies will the server have?:

I just want to say it from the start. This will be a roleplaying server, as any D&D environment should be. This game is really not for griefers and kewl doodz. Griefers will be persecuted heavily. Now, we aren't saying that pking will be disallowed. That's not the case. You CAN pk, but only within the confines of your CHARACTER. As soon as it becomes PLAYER vs. PLAYER, the guilty party will be dealt with. So, I guess you can say that pvp is banned, but character v character, or cvc is encouraged.
If you would like to be yourself online and talk to people with dewdspeak, then don't play a D&D based game, play UO.

This leads to another issue I am wrestling with that I want your input on. We can either have a totally open world where anyone can come in with their character and play, or we can have a closed world which you would have to fill out an application to play. Open worlds have the advantage of more players, but the disadvantage of having more griefers and kewldoodz. Closed worlds have the advantage that everyone is pretty much screened and the people around you have the same basic ideals of roleplaying, but the disadvantage is this would probably make for fewer players. Ideas?

How do I get involved and help with Avlis?:

If this is what you would like to do, we appreciate it. But we haven't figured out how we are going to handle this yet. Expect to see some kind of application process. Maybe an application for world builders, as well as DM's, and we may even make some sort of monitoring position to watch the world when none of the DM's are around. Again, any ideas?

Feel free to ask any other questions in regard to the world itself. We plan on having housing eventually, and we will be working on an interesting guild system.

[Edited on 6/13/02 by Orleron]

Secret-Assasin · Post by **Secret-Assasin** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:45 pm

Do a open world. Most people like populated places where they can meet new friends everyday and have fun with others.

Post by **Orleron** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:19 pm

Open worlds do have that advantage. But the problem with them is that it's very hard to weed out the assholes. We don't want people to log onto the server and just start killing things for no reason, and we don't want people to log onto the server who will ignore the fact that it's a D&D game and carry on like it were the streets of NYC or a ghetto.

So I pose the question to you: How do we have an open world that eliminates grief players and maintains its roleplaying?

Stifler · Post by **Stifler** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:48 pm

I'm clueless about this game and just stumbled onto this forum

I gotta ask is Neverwinter Nights a MMORPG. I was under the impression it was going to be a Single Player game a la Baldurs Gate.

Secret-Assasin · Post by **Secret-Assasin** » Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:25 am

yea i forgot about the jerks i world like that

maybe closed would be better. I dunno take a vote on it

Post by **Orleron** » Fri Jun 14, 2002 4:29 am

See nwn.bioware.com for basic information on the game.

Secret-Assasin · Post by **Secret-Assasin** » Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:33 pm

hmmm ill chck that out since i dont know much abut the game anyways

Footrott Flats · Post by **Footrott Flats** » Sat Jun 15, 2002 9:45 am

I thought on this one for a few minutes trying to come up with a solution. I tend to have a nack for finding solutions to things but this one... no win situation.

If I was a greifer. I would know what good things to say to get into your world. Then once in, greif city.

We also have people that are not good at writing why and whatfors. These people might be Great RPers and very good at D&D or AD&D, whatever they call it today (I was brought up with D&D, it was taught in school in math.) But due to your private world, they don't get in and you lose the chance to play with a good player.

Anyway you go you are in a bad sit. Possible solution. Semi private. We send in our email address (not online address but isp address) and the name of the char we are gonna make. This allows you to do a name search (if thats possible) on chars. Things don't match up. Delete! Banned!, whatever it is you do. This also targets any pks or griefers by name which you can line up with isp address.

I'm not a computer person really, but I imagine with all you've done here, and the people you know. This might be a possibility to do.

Just my thoughts......

Footrott Flats · Post by **Footrott Flats** » Sat Jun 15, 2002 10:16 am

As I sit here remembering my d&d days one thought comes to mind. Engineering. Your ideas for a persistant world with gates to many other "parts" is great. One problem, consistancy.

Here is what I mean. As a DM/World builder you know that balance in the world, and amongst its players must be tended. To strong of a player can destroy an entire adventure while to weak can get them all killed. With multiple worlds all combined into one. How is this balance to be maintain? A clear set of guildlines on monster loot, magic items, races, etc.. must be created.

Nothing worse than playing in a balanced land with certian guidelines when someone else jumps in with that invulnerable elven mithril mail that absorbs all spells lower than 7th level carring a +5 vorpel holy avenger and a dagger of assassination. Oh and did I forget, they are a special race with immunity to all firebased spells, charms, and illusions.

I hate to be the rain bringer, but this side must be addressed. We have seen from UO that everyone has thier own ideas and directions they want to go. Your plans are great. As was Richards. But when you allow others to take a lead in it, well... look at UO now. Massive weapons abundant, Gold so common that if you have 5 million gold your considered poor, etc.. etc.. etc..

What are the plans on preventing this? How will everyones "unique" races with "special powers" be addressed? Where will the balance be?

These are but a few of the things that need to be address in the engineering of the world. I for one have been looking forward to NWN coming out for a long time. And to see that you are going to create this.. well DAM GLAD! I look forward to playing D&D again, but these are my concerns.

Post by **Orleron** » Sat Jun 15, 2002 3:03 pm

Thanks Footrott, that was all immensely helpful.

Now to try and give some answers....

Any system of privacy, fully private or semi private, is not foolproof. This is why whatever system we enact will need to be accompanied by some good old staff interaction. The staff, in the end, will be the ones who patrol the area and weed out the griefers. If anything, all that a private world will do is make their job eaiser (i.e. fewer people to ban), and make the game a little more balanced. (more on this later)

The application I was thinking of would not have you put out a whole big long essay. In fact it probably would not matter WHAT your writing skills are because any questions on it would probably be answered in short phrases. In my mind the application is not the be all end all, but rather an extra step to go through if you want to play, and I'm hoping that that extra step will deter any lazy griefers. I'm sure griefers will still get in, but they will just have to be dealt with, and that's why the IP address comes in handy, like you said.

Balance.... always one of the most important issues, and one that has destroyed many games.
The cool thing about NWN is that it is very script dependent.

Say you have a server and on that server you've got a race that's immune to firebased spells (taking your earlier example). It is actually the work of a script that makes that race immune to those firebased spells, and if that character goes to another server that is NOT running that script, that ability will not be there. There is one other more complicated way to make races in NWN, but that way won't carry from server to server either.

Items will have to be controlled too, when entering from another server. How this will be done I can't say, because I haven't seen the software yet.

The worlds that ARE bound to ours via portal will be connected to servers whose admins share the same ideas and thoughts on balance as we do. A world will not be bound to us if there are huge differences in philosophies.

I do not think this will be easy, far from it. But I think it is possible to run a balanced world that keeps griefers to a minimum. Even if the world is private, with the number of people that go to Blackdagger from other games, a good number of them are bound to wanna try our world. So I don't think we'll have too much of a problem with getting members, and if we do, I'll just hook us into the VAST network of other sites that coordinate their members. (which we might do anyway eventually)

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 12:59 am

One of the best things would probably be demanding a complete new character to enter the world. This way people will have to grow and invest themselves into the server to reach a point where they could cause much serious harm to the environment of the server. After all, who's gonna go to the work of making a 20th level character to raise hell in a server if he will just get deleted after a day of griefing?
As far as balancing, keep in mind that the more modules you are linked to (and the ones that are linked to those, and so on) makes the task increasingly complicated.

Another complication: from what I've noticed with the editor, spell resistance and immunity are not a part of the character's scripts, but part of it's basic special qualities/feats. This would mean that while assigning them would require a script, the character's immunities would work independantly of server scripting afterwards. Another scary point, what if someone creates a race that is kept balanced because of it'scripting (i.e. I have powerful ability scores, and immunities, which are balanced out by special-case scripting).

A possible solution is to give unique creature types a list of 'tags' and allow the module operators to filter characters from linked modules selectively, and automatically.

Secret-Assasin · Post by **Secret-Assasin** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:08 am

Man the world thing sounds pretty cool but to bad i cant get the game on this crappy comp unless i can use my sis's labtop probaly

I am tryin to get a job right ow though

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:12 am

Man the world thing sounds pretty cool but to bad i cant get the game on this crappy comp unless i can use my sis's labtop probaly I am tryin to get a job right ow though

Hell, I need a job just to afford the damn game right now. Trying to find a good one that I can work through next semester with but I'm starting to get disgruntled, pissed, and worse of all desperate.

Post by **Orleron** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 3:29 am

Good point Macleod. That leads me to think that every character entering from another server would have to be screened by a staff member..... perhaps portalling will only be allowed while DM's are present? Writing a program to handle it is a nice idea, but I wonder if that idea is foolproof. A program can't think about balance as well as a human.

I guess it would also help to make damn sure we know what kind of characters the other servers that are linked to us have.

Secret-Assasin · Post by **Secret-Assasin** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 3:11 pm

I cant afford it now either but im doing jobs around the house like repaint a bench, clan cars..etc. Oh and i just checked back on my posts and realized i had alot of typos because people IM me on AOL while im typing and that kid of interupts so dont think im stupid and cant spell

Braman · Post by **Braman** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:32 pm

Hey there, linked over from the Syndie General board, hope ya don't mind. As far as cheaters go, I know there will be ways to screen them out built into the game(level restrictions, only allowing items approapriate to that person's level, etc). As far as griefers... although I doubt this game will have as many as certain others, it will still be a problem. Best thing I can think of is give people you trust DM powers? If anyone is giving another person a hard time just kick them, all you'd need was a few people that you know at least one will be on during most hours of the day(or even just prime hours.) Or hell, if someone is giving you a hard time just beat the crap out of them, always worked for me in UO

Secret-Assasin · Post by **Secret-Assasin** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:36 pm

Im on most of the day but im startig summer school soon until 1 pm and after that i got marching band pratice 5-9 in august so ill be on pretty much during the day. I just need to get the game and a new comp first which wont be happening in a while

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 7:15 pm

I guess it would also help to make damn sure we know what kind of characters the other servers that are linked to us have.

That strikes me as being just about the only way to do it without micromanaging every trip between servers. Going back to my earlier suggestion, you all (meaning you and the operators of other modules) could agree to set up tags describing customized character traits, and only approving someone whose traits <i>all</i> conform to your server's rules. Anyone not conforming to your rules could possibly be placed in a holding area where he could petition for approval.
Of course, this is highly dependant on being able to place variables or fields onto a character that will transfer between servers, which is iffy at best. Then again, you could always take the Deities field and turn it into a binary string

This wouldn't be perfect or all inclusive, nor would it protect you from the reprecussions of an inhonest (or just plain dumb) DM linked to your server, but it would give you some automated means of transferring (mostly) ordinary characters around.

Of course, I'm not completely sure on NwN's scripting capabilities, the idea of learning it's scripting language and actually writing out scripts before I have even seen the game just gives me a headache -- it's like programming without a computer in a language you've never used before.

P.S.
I just thought of a possible solution! Remember how the editor has slots for Natural weapons and armors? You could put special items there that hold the traits but do not actually effect the character (I think this should be possible)

Silk · Post by **Silk** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 8:17 pm

I can write a program to think about balance as well as a human for a closed world system like this. It's all numbers, baby.

Post by **Orleron** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 8:45 pm

Some definite good suggestions here. Keep them coming folks.

Braman · Post by **Braman** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 10:34 pm

I also like the idea of having to make a new character for the server, would make sense since it is a persistant world. Log out of Avlis at lvl 2 with crappy gear, log back in a few days later lvl 4 with a bunch of great stuff... wouldn't make much sense

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:19 am

I can write a program to think about balance as well as a human for a closed world system like this. It's all numbers, baby.

Silk, no offense, but I don't think you have any reasonable chance of accomplishing this feat. Not to mention if you could manage a reasonably accurate and capable analyst program in NwN-Script, how long would it take to code? NwN has a LOT of possible character attributes that would all need to be weighed, measured and considered.

Secret-Assasin · Post by **Secret-Assasin** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:20 am

Hes got a really good point there. I like the idea also instead of just bringing over a char that could be on a high lvl.

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:34 am

I still haven't seen a good description of the world that Avilis project is set in. I read the forum but short of reading the several lengthy posts of campaign notes (maybe later hehe) I haven't really seen any detail describing the world, and all the other stuff about it.

My requests:

1) Describe the world itself, the people and all that good crap

2) How challenging will life as an adventurer be?

3) What other stuff will be in it? Life as a merchant perhaps? Or if item creation feats are in, life as a custom magic gear maker for the rich (occasionally adventuring to regain exp)?

4) How customized will quests be? How many DM-monitored quests do you expect?

Post by **Orleron** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:05 am

My requests:

1) Describe the world itself, the people and all that good crap

It's a large world with a basic medieval fantasy theme. The main real difference is that there's no human dominance like in all other worlds. Humans are just another race, and being good aligned is not the only approved way to be.

The world is heavily based on 9's. Nine major gods. Nine major races. One of each of the nine alignments. Of course there are whole slews of minor gods and races, but the big nine have the most impact on the world. Each major race is VERY intelligent... Thus, orcs, for example, are the lawful evil race. That means that in Avlis the orcs are the politicians and tricksters and the like. They build cities and make holy warriors and have religions just like everyone else, except theirs focus on personal gain through covert means. That's just one example, but there's eight more. The other races are either combinations or sub races of some sort.

2) How challenging will life as an adventurer be?

At low levels the adventures will be the typical challenges, but once you get high level you start to have an influence on the way the world turns out because your challenges may include screwing around with powers greater than yourself.

3) What other stuff will be in it? Life as a merchant perhaps? Or if item creation feats are in, life as a custom magic gear maker for the rich (occasionally adventuring to regain exp)?

Aside from the normal life of adventuring and questing, there will be a couple of extra things. The world will build slowly, of course, but we plan on instituting some cool things. One of them is a country run by humans mostly. Originally the country was a huge empire with a mostly lawful neutral attitude. The emperor was killed by an evil mage about a couple centuries before the players time period, and the mage who killed him didn't exactly do it because he wanted to take over the empire. He did it to obtain an artifact that the emperor had. Well, the artifact goes on to appear in a different story later on, but the empire itself fell apart quickly without its strong leader to hold it togethor. Today, it is nothing more than a bunch of independent fiefdoms ruled by lords who squabble all the time. We are planning to put this country togethor and let the *guilds* come in and be the fiefdoms. In other words, THEY will build the castles and the towns in the fiefdoms, and they will decide all the names (with our approval of course). Then they can go ahead and fight over them and squabble all they want, but they've gotta stay within the bounds of the original empire.

As for the merchant stuff, we do plan on doing stuff like that. I think Silk will enjoy putting it togethor if he decides to do it. He likes that stuff. On parts of Avlis, there's huge amounts of trade, in some cases it's even a slave trade. (NPC's of course.)

4) How customized will quests be? How many DM-monitored quests do you expect?

There will be lots of very customized quests for parties that catch our attention, and there will be even more scripted quests. The amount will be limited only by our time (me and Silk) and the time of the DM's we bring aboard, of which we don't know much about yet.