Weapon finesse bug - new thing ?

Godron · Post by **Godron** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:32 pm

I have just noticed that weapon finesse is broken for monsters.

Just wondered if this was something new, or if it's always been like that.

A creature with higher dex than str and with weapon finesse should be using the dex modifier when using its creature weapon (which should go as unarmed attack) Looking at the char sheet it does also show up correctly, but looking at the message window, it's clear that it actually uses str mod.

That includes summons, so that air elemental that should have had 21/16/11 ends up having 16/11/6

New / old ? Something wrong with my installation ?

Psye Shaar · Post by **Psye Shaar** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:17 am

In my experience Air elemental summons always use power attack, which would explain the -5 to AB.. if this is the case. you'll notice it's damage increased by 5

Heed · Post by **Heed** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:16 pm

Old. Very old. Nothing wrong on your end. Creature weapon finesse has always showed on the sheet correctly but never actually gets used in the attack roll.

I ended up writing an onspawn function to apply the attack bonus if appropriate.

Godron · Post by **Godron** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:02 pm

Okay, thanks.

Just to make sure that there were no odd things like size modifiers messing it up, I tried giving a lowly raven +100 dex. That should have given it something like +45 attack....it got -2 *sigh*

I'll have to come up with something to fix it for my project. When it is that old and they have not fixed it yet, they likely never will.

Brock Fanning · Post by **Brock Fanning** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:54 pm

Does this bug apply to animal companions too? (I'm thinking of the hawk)

Godron · Post by **Godron** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:08 pm

From the test I did on a level 20 wiz with a Raven, yes.

It should have had 23/18/13 (+some from size) but actually only got 17/12/7.

The raven is the easiest to see it on as it has -4 str mod and +7 dex mod, but I think it goes for all the dex based familiars as well.
Perhaps some wiz with a panther can confirm this by casting maximized + empowered cats on it.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:13 am

Is this just for summons / familiars / companions ... or is it for every "monster" ?

What defines a monster? (Non-PC, non-playable race). Did Bioware really mess it up that badly? I honestly can't believe they missed such an obvious one ... really ? I can't that's just crazy !

Godron · Post by **Godron** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:42 am

It goes for every finesse creature that uses the 'creature weapon' instead of normal weapons. So, if for example any of our custom races have a creature weapon and you fight unarmed with it, then it would apply to such a PC as well.
I know lizardmen have 'weapon proficiency creature', but I have no idea if they actually have a creature weapon.

And yes, I also found it very hard to believe that they could have that kind of error and not fix it. That is why I initially thought that there was something wrong on my side. It does have a rather large impact.

Ever wondered why air elementals are the easiest elementals to defeat in NWN ? According to the monster manual, they are supposed to have the highest AC, the highest attack rating (shared 1st place with earth) and only a little lower damage than the others. And yet...

Heed · Post by **Heed** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:45 pm

Pretty sure none of the weapon specific feats work for creature weapons. i.e. weapon focus (creature weapon), improved critical (creature weapon), etc.

I haven't looked at it closely other than to apply the weapon finesse bonus in script, but I believe the creature weapon feats are all unused by the creatures who have them.

As to why Bio never fixed them, I would guess it is marked as low priority to them. I'm pretty sure it's known and been reported, but you could always fire off a bug report to nwbugs@bioware.com Next patch is supposed to big, so maybe a fix will be in, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

VETT SCALES L7 · Post by **VETT SCALES L7** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:54 pm

Realistically weapon finesse for a bird is sort of silly.

Always thought the feat would reflect someone that has dedicated himself to training many many hours to gain the benefits of it. Likewise for most creature and monster types.

If they actually have weapon finesse for a feat, seems pretty useless.

Godron · Post by **Godron** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:51 pm

Heed wrote:Pretty sure none of the weapon specific feats work for creature weapons. i.e. weapon focus (creature weapon), improved critical (creature weapon), etc.

I haven't looked at it closely other than to apply the weapon finesse bonus in script, but I believe the creature weapon feats are all unused by the creatures who have them.

Ah, that's where things get really messy because, if you apply 'weapon focus creature', then it does not show up on the char sheet, but if you look in the message window for the actual rolls then it does work.
In contrast to 'improved critical creature', which does not show and does not work, but if you give the same creature 'improved critical un-armed' then it gets the benefit