On Petrification, Thought "bubbles" and 'horseplay

[chilingsworth]

I'm posting this on reconmendation from Mikon.

Earlier today(8/10/05), in the Mikona Docks, My charecter, Grag "the Balanced," (he thinks he's balanced because he "isn't order-obsessed like most of the Valok-worshiping Orcs of his homeland, Dubunat, Kinda like FOX News claims to be "fair and balanced," but he's a Malekite reacting to Valok worship, rather than uber-conservatives (many would say facists) reacting to sane, not irredeamably selfish people.)

But the explination of his title is of little consequence, I add it as much to let off purpetual steam as for any other reason. Anyway, My charecter was attracted to the Docks of Mikona earlier today during a "farewell" ceremony for the sword of Toran, and, being an Intelligent (16 Int), order loathing, fellow, and because, having died and"gotten better" several times already, not carring overly for his own hide, decided to heckle the troops. Yes, I know, bad idea.

Anyway, He ended up petrified. My basic question is this: Do petrified people remain aware of their surroundings? I also have other questions based on other aspects of this incident, but will get to those latter. (and I apologize for my rather extreme longwindedness, both to date and in advance)

So, I got petrified. When this happened, I got several tells of "lame" or the like, which I strongly agreed with. But when it happened, I promptly asked the dm, and I'll quote myself here: "Do petrified people retain their hearing?" I was wondering if I would be able to hear the continuing orratory. I got the following response: Mikon: "yeah."

The events leading up to my NOT taking this at face value are, IMHO, somewhat comlicated. Now, first off, I saw many other charecters using punctuation to display thoughts such as one who 'talked': *Wants Orc(me, presumably) thrown into Ocean* when I was heckling (before I got "stoned" and was acting like an ass of my own accord) and then, after petrification *REALLY wants Orc thrown in Ocean,* There are other examples, but I'll leave those alone for the moment. Anyway, there were plenty of 'thought bubbles' going arround, is the chief point I'm trying to make.

Now, I was told that petrified charecters retain perceptions, this implies that they retain thought as well, does it not? It is, after all, very hard to percieve anything is rendered thoughtless. So, I was told that Perception (and hence thought) were still available to me. Given that their were PLEANTY of "thought bubbles" (or at least, words appearing above PC and NPC heads that I intepreted as thought bubbles), I had no reason to believe the practice to be prohibited. Now, Thought is thought is thought, is it not? Weather from an orc, a goody-two-shoes Dwarf, or a statue that was recently an Orc. If a statement aplies to one source of thought, it should apply to all sources, at least, all sentient sources. (animals and such might be a different matter)
So, if "thought bubbles" are okay (which, again, I had AMPLE evidence to make me believe) then, they would be okay, even for petrified characters. (given the info that Mikon gave me regarding the subject of thought retention) So, being bored, and having no other outlit, I gave out the occational "thought bubble" I always marked them in what I thought was the conventional manner. (i.e., *this sux*, or, *this really, REALLY, sucks!*, among others.) I continued, untill a player told me that "I cant do that." via tell. I asked her(him? PC was fem, anyway.) why not and told her what Mikon told me. (that perception was still possible.) She said I was "emoting." I told her that they were thoughts, as was indicated by my punctuation, reasonably clearly, I think. Her response was "I asked the dm and he said that you can't see, speak, hear, touch, taste, feel, etc. when petrified" So, I had two directly condridictory pieces of infornmation:

1. from Mikon's mouth, directly, I had that I still could percieve, (and therefore think) and

2. From another player, who said she was quoting "the dm" that said I could not do these things.

Now, obviously, these two responses could not both be true. Due to their inclusiveness, they could also not both be false (My charecter was either able or not able to think. No intermediate solutions are possible, that I can think of, anyhow.) Therefore, I had to chose one of them. I am smart enough (I hope) not to do so without some sort of dm ruling (or other reference resource), if any such is available. So, I again put a message on the dm channel, explaining the situation, and asking for the truth, if any was to be had. I waited what should (I think) have been pleanty of time for a reply (about five to eight minuets), if I was going to get one. I did not get a reply. As a result, I acted on the only dm ruling on the subject [/i]I, personally, was aware of. I continued to put up "thought bubbles." Eventually, I was thrown into the prison and eventually realesed. I have no qualms with this end result. Indeed, if anything, it may well have been too light. But I do feel the need to resolve the following:

1. What happens to a petrified person's mental activity (thoughts and perceptions)?

2. What are the rulings on "thought bubbles"?

3. What is the "correct" punctuation for thought bubbles? (assuming they are not banned outright. As I have already mentioned, I assume this due to their commonality.)

4. What is to be the consequence of my actions? Am I to be given "a warning"? A suspension? Exile? The chore of coming to you guys' homes/offices to clean your latrines for the rest of my natural life? (that would definately be a hard one to pull off, I'd bet! ) Or something entirely different?

5. If I or Grag (my character) are not booted, then is there anyone interested in "working on him" with me? I have already posted at least a rudimentry backstory for him under the thread "Charater Obits and Births," and can be very agreeable (when not IC, at the very least, I hope!).

Well, as I often find myself doing, I thank anyone who has read this entire post, and hope my longwindedness will be excused/forgiven (or at least tolorated). I look forward to any replies.

[Aloro]

An emote is not a "thought bubble" - it's a form of communication, which reveals what your character feels through his or her actions. E.g. if someone emotes * looks bored *, they're indicating their mental state by means of body language. Without that body language, they'd have no way to emote their thoughts and feelings, for emoting is always active. Therefore, when paralyzed, you shouldn't emote, or otherwise communicate IMO.

And no, I don't think it's really appropriate for others to emote what they want, unless they have a way of expressing that through body language. * wants to see Orc thrown in ocean * is a particularly silly example of something that doesn't fit an emote.

The talk channel is for IC communication. Everything that's said on that channel should be a way of communicating to other characters what your character thinks or feels. Thoughts aren't IC communication at all, unless the other person is a mindreader.

You're not in any trouble for this; there are no consequences. Please don't do it again though.

- Aloro

[chilingsworth]

Thanks for the pardon.

I have no intention of doing this again (that is, I will not, if possible, get petrified again, and will not emote, if I should happen to break my first vow.)

However, Many of the instances of "body language" I have seen convayed quantities and nuances of information that can only be tranfered by true language. At least, that's how it seems to me, but I'm not particularly good at reading body language, so a novel could be writen in it and I would be unaware. Not that I seek to condridict anyone outright, but that is my general perception. If this perception is correct, then wouldn't that be the "wordless" display of words? That means either sign language, or thoughts. Or am I missing something? I am, of course discounting any commuication that is obviously entirely ooc (e.g., afk, brb, Lag sux [insert explative here], etc.)

[Aradan Kir]

From what Aloro said, it seems that if you emote *hopes the guard throws the orc in the sea*, what other charatacters and NPC's see is your character pointing, laughing and perhaps making drowning impressions - which they can then respond to if they wish, as opposed to it being something the character just privately wished, but didn't actually want anyone to respond to.

As this was me that did the emote, I apologise - it just seemed like a vaguely amusing thing to say at the time.

If what I put in the 1st paragraph is the team's stance on *emotes* then I'll carry on but anticipate that others can lawfully react to them if they wish.

PS Just for clarification, I wasn't the one that Telled the orc about emoting when petrified

[Merago Jert]

I think conveying thoughts like *wants to see the orc thrown in the water* is probably pushing the limits of what can be expressed through body language a bit too far. You'd have to actually use sign language for something as expressive as that mate! At least, that's my opinion anyway.

In game, I tend to ignore thought bubble style emotes as none of my characters are mind readers. But then, with psionics around these days, perhaps some thoughts could be read.

[Aradan Kir]

In game, I tend to ignore thought bubble style emotes as none of my characters are mind readers. But then, with psionics around these days, perhaps some thoughts could be read.

yeah .. that's it ... I was giving the psionics something to do

I think conveying thoughts like *wants to see the orc thrown in the water* is probably pushing the limits of what can be expressed through body language a bit too far. You'd have to actually use sign language for something as expressive as that mate! At least, that's my opinion anyway.

you're probably right .... but maybe it comes across more as a "severe frown with a few mutterings about throwing him to the fish", but then I guess I could have just emoted that instead.

Oh well ... I'll try and be a good boy in future

[Katroine]

You could have done *makes brief motion to shove the stone in the harbor mockingly to the guard* and it would have been the same.

I am the one that sent him a tell, not to be a bitch but because I knew it was a new player/character and he might not have known. I thought you could talk and do stuff while stoned until someone told me OOCly what being stoned meant, then I tested it ICly so Gracie would know what happens.

If I offended someone, I apologize but I know I appreciated it when people told me things like "Gracie, you cannot fly so stop emoting it" or some such. Hope you didn't take it wrong, Chillingsworth.

The way someone explained it to me, you are for all intents and purposes, a stone. Be the stone.

[Czarcasm]

I find the ridiculously long emote, that one could never interpret through body language, absolutely hilarious sometimes. I think most experienced RPers know not to take them seriously as they just add a bit of humor to the RP. Experienced RPers or creative folk will usually interpret something like *wishes he had a steak too* as a look of hunger. *looks hungry* or *stomach growls* would have the same meaning, but it doesn't convey humor to the person playing the character. Just my opinion.

When my PC is turned to stone, I act like he can't perceive, emote, or talk, however.

[TiVO25]

When my PC is turned to stone, I act like he can't perceive, emote, or talk, however.

I emote one line, and one line only:

*has the munchies*

[Snow]

I use the "thought" emotes from time to time myself. But like Czarcasm said, it's usualy among friends and to give a humorous tone to the scene. The characters of course can not see or react to the "thought" but the players enjoy it and I've found myself laughing on my chair by thought emotes.

Would I walk around emoting *thinks he needs to find some place to sit* or something similar? No. I try not to use emotes other characters can't see. But some times they can help for some semi-ooc laughs

[Katroine]

I like funny thought emotes too, when you are capable of thought. I do it and I have seen some funny emotes from people when they are just having random thoughts.

I always emote *hopes it is a pony* when anyone tells me that they have something for me. Sure, they don't know but she could be staring wide eyed and hopeful and anyone who knows her, would know.

[Moredo]

I'm not sure how the spell works but when I'm petrified I act like my character is in a cryogenic sleep. Not having been frozen down, I don't know what happens, but I can only guess that you don't think, hear, feel ect.

But I like to emote thoughts on occation. I first thought of it (heh) when I heared that Janus had emoted *looks at Graces butt* quickly followed by a *hopes Morran didn't see it* or somesuch. I thought that was funny, and have used 'thought bubbles' every now and then after that.

It's just an RP tool, to let the other characters get an idea on what type of character you are, imo. But if it's against the rules, I'll stop

[chilingsworth]

I use the "thought" emotes from time to time myself. But like Czarcasm said, it's usualy among friends and to give a humorous tone to the scene. The characters of course can not see or react to the "thought" but the players enjoy it and I've found myself laughing on my chair by thought emotes.

Would I walk around emoting *thinks he needs to find some place to sit* or something similar? No. I try not to use emotes other characters can't see. But some times they can help for some semi-ooc laughs

Exactly!

My primary intent was not to disrup, but to amuse. Given that I had few alternatives, I took what I had.

As for offense? None (or very little, anyway, taken) I quoted the *throw orc to sea* emotes because I felt that that they illustrated the point I was attempting to make well and because I remembered them exactly. I mentioned the tell because it was my chief problem. This is not because I found it offensive, but because it directly condridicted what a dm had already told me. If two rulings contridict each other, how can confusion fail to result?
Under more favorable circumstances, I DO aprieciate any advice others can lend me.

A couple of other things I noticed, though;

First, there was severe lag at the time of the event in question. This led to the following occurance :
Someone #1: Come with me, orc!
Me: Where?
Someone #1: Onto the pier.
Me: But I'm already on the pier, therefore, I have no need to go with you. *takes a seat*
Someone#2: You have three seconds! (this takes about three minuets to appear on my screen)
Because I did Not get the warning, I did not respond.
Spellcaster with evilly strong fort save on flesh to stone: Casting flesh to stone.
Spellcaster with evilly strong fort save on flesh to stone: Casts flesh to stone.
Me: Save vs. Petrification *failure* (10+5=15vs.30)

YOU HAVE BEEN TURNED TO STONE DO You: Exit or Wait For Help?

After many reactions (which come faster than I am able to read them) I notice warning. Not that it would have made much difference, but the delay was irritating. Oh well, what ya gonna do?

The other thing I noticed, was that most of the charecters were taking the "cannons" for granted! This makes little sense to me because, at least acording to Mikon, Cannons are Not common on Avlis. (I asked him: Are Cannons commonly known about on Avlis? Response: Nope. Response#2: In fact almost all people would not even Know that they exist.) This response seemed pretty clear, at least to me. Of course all of the charecters I noticed doing this might have been part of that blessed minority that *did* know about cannons. Maybe it was a gatering of the Connonmakers guild, or some such, I guess I don't really know. I suppose such a gatering might have cause to take issue with "all the dumbass questions" that Grag was asking about the cannons, but how did a paddlewhacker (paladin) like Thor get invited to the guild?

Just wondering.

[Kareth]

My understanding of petrification is that you can not move a muscle - which means no emoting apart from maybe *glares at the spellcaster* . I have heard some say that you can move your eyes but that is about it (of course if your eyelids are close you can not open them). From what I understand you can see and you can hear you just can not do anything.

As for what to do if you get told conflicting things by a DM and a player - go with the DM everytime. DM is like a trump card it beats a players view everytime.

If you have been told something by a DM who is running an event and a player keeps "telling" you other wise mention to the player you are going with the DM's view and if they continue hassling you mention it to the DM who is running the event.

[CPU]

I'm not ceertain what the exact Team ruling is... But I would think that if you have been turned into stone, you are a solid peice of rock, incapable of any perception. Technically you've become an inanimate object. None of your bodily functions would work due to being made out of stone. Anyway, that is the way I have played it on the (very few) times I have had a character of mine turned to stone. I've become a statue as far as I'm concerned.

[Aradan Kir]

If two rulings contridict each other, how can confusion fail to result?

Until it is clarified at a later date, if a player tells you one thing (however nice they are) and a DM tells you something else (however horrible they are) - the DM is "right".



As to the cannons thing, I guess it was partly a lack of knowledge (ie not knowing that Cannons aren't standard issue on warships) and people trying not to spam the talk channel with questions and inane emotes about pushing statues into the sea , so that the ceremony could actually take less than 3 RL days to complete.

[bolo]

I don't really see the harm in " thought emotes" if they're used for some fun semi-ooc humor.

*Wonders why those birds are circling over his head, hope they haven't just eaten *

* wishes he could move..By Maleki my arse itches something fierce! *

IC I would ignore them, but as long as they're not too ridiculous and mood breaking like * feels like doing a Ozzy Osbourne to those chickens *, * whoa, he feels really stoned dude * or some such, something light hearted and unoffensive ads to the fun, ocasionally...

[Czarcasm]

Cannons are fairly common in the Kurathene Empire, the boat was a Trenish vessel (a Kurathene fief), and (from the screenshot) many of the people have either visited Kurathene, know people from Kurathene, or actually hail from the empire. Not to refute, because I doubt the common Mikonan knows about cannons, but a well educated lad probably would.

[Katroine]

For the record, the same DM told me he could not emote while stoned and that he could not see the character in question and did not know he was emoting while stoned.


The spell description states the victim becomes a mindless inert object along with all his/her possessions. Likely why someone can't stone you and search you.

Anyway, it was a good event, sorry it soured for you.

(and as for cannons, Gracie has fired them a lot. The Clandestine has them and it is anchored in the docks.)

[spokeydonkey]

File that under "rules for your character to live by." Don't heckle soldiers during lag. If you really think you were griefed, file a griefing report with the team (email staff@avlis.org).

The other thing I noticed, was that most of the charecters were taking the "cannons" for granted! This makes little sense to me because, at least acording to Mikon, Cannons are Not common on Avlis. (I asked him: Are Cannons commonly known about on Avlis? Response: Nope. Response#2: In fact almost all people would not even Know that they exist.) This response seemed pretty clear, at least to me. Of course all of the charecters I noticed doing this might have been part of that blessed minority that *did* know about cannons. Maybe it was a gatering of the Connonmakers guild, or some such, I guess I don't really know. I suppose such a gatering might have cause to take issue with "all the dumbass questions" that Grag was asking about the cannons, but how did a paddlewhacker (paladin) like Thor get invited to the guild

There's three issues here:
(1) Adventurers aren't "almost all people." They're probably the top 0.1-1% of the population. Epic-level adventurers are certainly in the top 0.01%. While a commoner probably never travels out of walking distance of his home, adventurers commonly travel hundreds and thousands of miles between nations. They're exceptional, and probably much more likely to hear of cannons in their travels than a commoner.

(2) Some PCs have definite first-hand knowledge of cannons. Mine is among them, and I'm pretty sure (taking a guess at who was present at the event) at least a handful of those at the docks were, too.

(3) Not everyone takes the time to read and memorize every bit of the available world information. Not everyone immediately thinks to ask a DM whether X, Y, or Z is common in Avlis, but rather make assumptions. For example, gunpowder is supposed to be very rare. Whoda thunk it, since during the war, both army guilds had hundreds of kegs full of powder? Hell, my PC is carrying around 4 kegs now. I'd always assumed it was fairly common, until someone pointed out to me that it wasn't. I guess it makes sense for armies and PCs to be able to get gunpowder (see 1 above), whereas most commoners will never have heard of it.

[Kieron]

Cannons are fairly common in the Kurathene Empire, the boat was a Trenish vessel (a Kurathene fief), and (from the screenshot) many of the people have either visited Kurathene, know people from Kurathene, or actually hail from the empire. Not to refute, because I doubt the common Mikonan knows about cannons, but a well educated lad probably would.

and Aryen and the Alphas imported some cannons from Kurathene to pulverise the stinking nanshi at fishhaven near the end of the war. so soldiers would be familiar with them and citizens would have heard about that battle.

[Gairus]

Last I checked glaring required muscles.

[Kareth]

Last I checked glaring required muscles.

I knew someone who managed to make a good attempt at it when pretty much all of his face was still numb after an operation

[Red]

Cannons are fairly common in the Kurathene Empire, the boat was a Trenish vessel (a Kurathene fief), and (from the screenshot) many of the people have either visited Kurathene, know people from Kurathene, or actually hail from the empire. Not to refute, because I doubt the common Mikonan knows about cannons, but a well educated lad probably would.

Heh, Raldar's fired one.

[chilingsworth]

About the cannons, well I was unaware of their use in the Kurathene Empire. Since Garag is originaly from Dubunat, might he have known of them, himself?

In any event, that is a case where I was unaware of the the facts surrounding the matter. Is there any information regarding this in the history/backround of Avlis?

As for filing a 'grief report' I would have done so, had I felt griefed. As things are, I merely felt confused. I simply wished to clear up some sticky points. I have enough 'grief' in RL that NOTHING (that I can readily imagine) that happends to an alter-ego on a computer screen can really bother me all that much. Even the worst situations are better than some of the things I am obliged to dwell on when not otherwise distracted.
Also, I figured I was probably pushing my luck already, anyway. I do not take issue with the treatment my charecter recieved (though as his primary tactic was to use reasoned arguments, a clever opponent might have been able to out debate him, and any attempt to do so would have been more interesting from an RPing perspective, IMHO,). If anything, his punishment was too light, probably. Not that I'm unhappy with light punishment.

As for 'going with the dm,' this is a matter of course. The difficulty lay not in the player, but the claimed (but unconfirmed, at least to me,) dm ruling that player was quoting. When I attempted to confirm, I got no response. I know that this was probably due to the demands placed on the dms at the time, or possibly due to lag. I am also aware that I was one of the bigger demands at the moment. None of that made the situation any less confusing to me.