CoPaP, a Misconception

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CoPaP, a Misconception

Post by Silk » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:42 pm

Grimm wrote:There are many "worlds out there on the net" just about one for every taste, or so I have seen. It is my formulated opinion , r/t witnessed events that many of the CoPap worlds are like human beings, though different in manner , speech and appearance, when an autopsy is performed the same internals are Tresent. Such is with CoPap worlds. They produce cookie cutter worlds. This I will admit is necessary for a large chain organization, for an octopus to survive all it's tentacles must work together, but there in lies the dilemma, you been to one Mac Donalds you have been to them all.

What I see is people that have gone as far as straining the very bonds of good solid friendship. For a dream? No , not just a dream a tangible reality. What we have here is special, different, and all went to great pains to create it. It deserves to live and breathe, unhobbled.
*gets down off of soap box* I thank you.
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This is a post made by Grimm, an Arborea Developer on their forums.
I wanted to comment on this here simply because what he posted is so far from reality, that it's delusional and self-serving.

What is CoPaP at heart?
CoPaP is a document... an "Articles of Confederation". It is a written agreement by any joining member world to follow certain standards and guidelines when developing their world.

The guidelines in the "Articles" are specifically to address issues that arise between worlds when they are connected together. These guidelines facilitate a balanced and fair way two worlds can interact.

These guidelines are an agreement to get along for the betterment of all parties.

By making this agreement, a member world gets:
- Access to an entire library of persistent world oriented code and systems (all optional).
- Access to a large pre-existing player base to kick start their virgin world
- Access to a knowledge-base of experts who have already encountered all the startup obstacles and form a think-tank support group to conquer any new obstacles
- Free marketing and promotions for their world

There's more, the list goes on and on.

The only thing a member world has to bring to the table, is cooperation with those guidelines since they cover issues that will adversely effect all other member worlds.

It's their world to creatively develop any way they choose outside of those limited guidelines.

And quite frankly, if a world can't handle cooperation with other worlds according to the guidelines, then they should NOT be part of CoPaP.

We wish you well Arborea. Good Luck in your path.
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Post by Fifty » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:46 pm

I assume that means Arborea have left CoPaP?
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Post by Silk » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:50 pm

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Post by thelamia » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:56 pm

Well, i've never made a CoPaP world personally, but I have read over the document which details what is expected. I think it's perfectly clear that there are guidelines and standards that you have to adhere to, in order to create one. I wouldn't expect exceptions to be made to standards set out by CoPaP, if I were to create a world. :shock:

It's okay Silk, most of realize what CoPaP is all about. :)
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Post by Grunt » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:32 pm

...cookie cutter?

Hala is much different from Avlis which is much different from Tairis... which is nothing at all like the Outlands.

((I can't name any other worlds as I haven't travelled other than those ones listed))

What exactly is cookie cutter? I don't get it.

Hell, even the different "countries" in Avlis are different from one another...looks, playing atmosphere and characters.

Sorry that they won't be hooking up. More worlds = good :) But if their vision is not the same as the COPAP vision, then it's best for both to sever ties and continue as they see fit.

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Post by thelamia » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:36 pm

Grunt wrote: ...cookie cutter?
Cookie cutter, as in conforming to a set model, like a cookie cutter would shape cookies into the exact same shape. A commonly used term in the gaming world.. usually to describe "cookie cutter" character builds. (I.e. a build that is built for one purpose, to kill a certain type of monster easily, etc.)
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Post by Aloro » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:58 pm

People considering having their worlds join CoPaP are instructed to read the guidelines carefully in advance - there shouldn't be any surprises about what's expected of every world in CoPaP (which is not to be cookie cutter copies, at all - but only to adhere to some core standards that are necessary for the survival and balance of each and every participating world). If joining CoPaP is not in line with your Vision for your world, then we will wish you the best of luck on your own.

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Post by Spartan » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:37 pm

Too strict and every world turns into the same thing.
Too accomodating and the worlds become unbalanced.

I've head the vision mentioned a lot. Maybe i missed where it's specifically posted. What is the copap vision?
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Post by Aloro » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:38 pm

Spartan wrote:Maybe i missed where it's specifically posted.
http://www.copap.org

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Post by Fuzz » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:47 pm

/me scratches head...

... This is news?

Those Articles have been around a damn long time.
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Post by Fire Monkey » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:30 pm

X:| Oh no! You mean I've been eating in Macdonalds for the last two years?
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Post by Al-Kalim » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:07 am

I am not at all in the know regarding why Arborea chose to leave, but I think the name-calling seen above is entirely counterproductive. I feel certain that the Arborea team understood the Articles of Confederation upon joining, and, from what I have seen, they and COPAP have acted responsibly and according to the Articles in the withdrawal of Arborea's membership application.

I think COPAP is facing some pretty big decisions pretty soon, and I recommend confronting whatever constructive feedback has been received from the Arborea team as a learning experience, rather than an exercise in name-calling.

I have been a COPAP member for more than a year, now. In that time, I believe, no new worlds have successfully joined COPAP (I might be wrong here, and one or two of the six may have joined within the time that I have been a member). This, to me, represents a significant problem. The really attractive idea of COPAP is that it will integrate numerous worlds: I don't think COPAP is living up to that goal, for whatever reason.

A careful look at these six worlds reveals, I think, an even more significant problem:

1. For starters, Ea's server and website have been down lately--can we even consider them a functioning world?

2. Tairis'nadur's website makes it clear that this is not a setting meant for new players. This is not meant as a criticism of them, but I think most COPAP newbies, or those looking to start a new character, see that and take it to heart: Tairis'nadur is not the place for me right now.

3. Hala, I have not been to, and really do not feel qualified to comment on.

4. Abyss 404, I have not been to, and really do not feel qualified to comment on.

5. Mystara, the world which attracted me to COPAP and on which I have spent the most time, seems to be dying. Not only are the servers and website intermittent, at best, but the quality of the world has, I think, deteriorated. I would argue that Mystara, at least, has fallen victim to the sort of cookie-cutter imagery that started this thread. Six months ago, when Rockhome was still vibrant, it was already showing considerable issues. Items all over the server bore names not in any way associated with Rockhome, but rather with Avlis. At any given time, a player would be more likely to find more characters present from Avlis (and, to a lesser degree, Hala) than native to Mystara. While generally friendly, these Avlissian explorers were often more interested in taking advantage of the generous treasure drops/xp in certain sections of the server than in advancing Rockhome's storyline in any way.

I want to make it clear that I still enjoy Rockhome, and I very much appreciate the hard work that so many people have put into this setting. I'd also like to clarify that, individually, I met some great visitors from Avlis, and I also do not want to make it appear that I am criticizing them. However, whether due to administrative decisions, player base, COPAP configuration, or a combination of the above, the atmosphere of Mystara was negatively--perhaps fatally--impacted.

I will continue to play on Rockhome when possible, but I have come to terms with the realization that, most likely, this server will not be around much longer, and I will most likely lose a character on whom I have spent countless hours. While I recognize the possibility of relocating her to another server, I have come to the decision that, as a Mystaran character, there is no reasonable IC reason to do so.

6. Avlis is impressive. The long-time, dedicated player base exigent in Avlis is overwhelming--both in a good way and a bad way.

The good--Avlis has the highest concentration of RPers that I have ever encountered. Period. And that's one heck of an accomplishment. Add to that all the integrated custom code systems and the extensive world background developed, and Avlis is, without question, a great thing.

The bad--Avlis is not friendly to new players or new starts of existing COPAP players. While you are welcome to disagree with me, this is based off of my own experience, so I think it is legitimate. With each new character I have created in Avlis (three total now) and when my Rockhome alter travelled to Deglos, I have had similar results. I have encountered a couple of PCs who were willing to befriend me and kind of show me the ropes (incidentally, whether they recognized my Gamespy name or not, these are PCs who I have also been impressed with in Rockhome). Among the four starts, I have had the pleasure of about five minutes of DM interaction (I am genuinely grateful to the DM, don't know the name, who was willing to give me this attention, and I certainly don't want to make it sound otherwise. However, when compared to the DM attention in the past in Rockhome, and in various new worlds like Arborea, it just does not compare).

I have read through the Avlis source material, but the fact is that it is too much to fully internalize for an occasional player. I really do not remember what the differences are among T'nanshi, Mikona, Elysia, etc., much less all the different deities. At this point, I simply do not anticipate spending the time in Avlis necessary to really learn all these things--while I admire the effort put into this world, I would rather invest what time I have in a setting which I will enjoy more.


So, I would argue, that if COPAP is worth saving, then we as a community really should look at the concerns expressed. Having seen what the overwhelming population of Avlis and the ravages of time have done to Mystara, I believe that there is legitimate concern regarding the cookie-cutterization of worlds. Perhaps if Moonsea had managed to hang in there we would have a more successful model. However, at this point, it seems that the path of least resistance in COPAP is to become simply a satellite of Avlis. While this might well be what the players of Avlis want, I would encourage those who want to dedicate their time to building the Avlis community to do so by filling in some of the still-numerous holes in the map of Avlis.

Those individuals generous enough to dedicate their time to building a new world should be able to coexist with Avlis without being overwhelmed by Avlis. Perhaps this will never be possible, but I think that the ideas underlying COPAP are valuable enough to keep trying.

Having finally laid out what I think is a convincing argument that COPAP needs to consider some sort of change, now I'll offer a few suggestions of possible changes that might help.

1. Eliminate the crafting system from the Avlis-compliant world model. While I recognize the generosity of the Avlis Dev team in sharing this system, I believe that it, more than anything else, enforces the cliquishness of Avlis and spreads the distribution of Avlis-specific items throughout COPAP. I would have no problem with banning the Bioware crafting system, as well. Ideally, the dev team would be willing to share their crafting system source code with other worlds, allowing freedom to alter the system as desired, so long as it remains relatively balanced.

2. Encourage new member worlds to set level limits. As long as exploration of new member worlds is primarily possible only when accompanied by high-level visitors from existing member worlds, the social dynamic of these worlds will be shaped in an Avlis-centric manner which, I think, detracts from their unique playability.

3. Actively recruit to the Avlis team those interested in expanding the scope of opportunities for Avlis players. As long as people are volunteering their time for new worlds with the thinking that they will be a great place for their high-level friends to explore, we will be facing the alternative of either disappointing the staff members or creating worlds which invite domination by Avlis characters.

4. Consider giving added voice in COPAP to those who are not specifically tied to existing worlds. I do not in any way want to minimize the contribution of Orleron (thanks for all you do!), but I think there may be, at some level, some difficulty in combining the leadership of Avlis and of COPAP.

5. Honestly listen to and consider the feedback provided by the team from Arborea. They have far more experience with the membership application process than do most.

Thanks for listening :D
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Post by chamalscuro » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:15 am

Didn't I read a thread last week about not discussing COPAP here on the Avlis boards? Maybe this thread needs to end...?
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Post by thelamia » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:16 am

chamalscuro wrote:Didn't I read a thread last week about not discussing COPAP here on the Avlis boards? Maybe this thread needs to end...?
It was started by a DM. :roll:

EDIT: Correction, it was started by "g0d" :)
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Post by chamalscuro » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:22 am

Good point; didn't bother looking who originated the thread. I just remembered the sticky:
viewtopic.php?t=27226&sid=cee7dc93e798a ... 42983f6cd1
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Post by Vichan Lyonsen » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:30 am

Being the ambassador to a CoPaP WIP (World in Progress) I can address some of these things.
1. Eliminate the crafting system from the Avlis-compliant world model. While I recognize the generosity of the Avlis Dev team in sharing this system, I believe that it, more than anything else, enforces the cliquishness of Avlis and spreads the distribution of Avlis-specific items throughout COPAP. I would have no problem with banning the Bioware crafting system, as well. Ideally, the dev team would be willing to share their crafting system source code with other worlds, allowing freedom to alter the system as desired, so long as it remains relatively balanced.
This and the rest of Avlis systems are shared with all CoPaP worlds...and they are free to modify them as they see fit, or not use them at all.
2. Encourage new member worlds to set level limits. As long as exploration of new member worlds is primarily possible only when accompanied by high-level visitors from existing member worlds, the social dynamic of these worlds will be shaped in an Avlis-centric manner which, I think, detracts from their unique playability.
Each world is encouraged to make their world different from Avlis and the other copap worlds, provided those core things that are defined in the CoPaP charter are followed...
3. Actively recruit to the Avlis team those interested in expanding the scope of opportunities for Avlis players. As long as people are volunteering their time for new worlds with the thinking that they will be a great place for their high-level friends to explore, we will be facing the alternative of either disappointing the staff members or creating worlds which invite domination by Avlis characters.
Avlis has always accepted applications to the team form devoted players.. I know...I spent a year DMing here...
4. Consider giving added voice in COPAP to those who are not specifically tied to existing worlds. I do not in any way want to minimize the contribution of Orleron (thanks for all you do!), but I think there may be, at some level, some difficulty in combining the leadership of Avlis and of COPAP.
I'm not quite sure I follow this...giving added voice to teh running of Copap to people who are not associtated with existing worlds doesnt sound right to me...but then I probably dont understand the comment.
5. Honestly listen to and consider the feedback provided by the team from Arborea. They have far more experience with the membership application process than do most.
Well the world leaders would have to chime in on this, but I would venture to say that Avlis has several years worth of application screening experience over any other CoPaP worlds....
Six months ago, when Rockhome was still vibrant, it was already showing considerable issues. Items all over the server bore names not in any way associated with Rockhome, but rather with Avlis.
You would have to ask the developers of Rockhome about this, but for the most part it boils down to not taking the time to fit these items into the world (i.e. change descriptions and so forth) but its not as easy as it sounds...the World I work on has purged its pallatte 2 or 3 times now in an effort to make sure that not too many Avlis specific items get through.

Arborea sounds like a terific server, and I wish them all the luck...I am not privy to why they have made this decision and unless it somehow might effect Ithilla....I dont want to be privy to it....
Too strict and every world turns into the same thing.
Too accomodating and the worlds become unbalanced.
This is probably the most accurate statement made yet.....
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Re: CoPaP, a Misconception

Post by apandapion » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:34 am

Silk wrote:
Grimm wrote:There are many "worlds out there on the net" just about one for every taste, or so I have seen. It is my formulated opinion , r/t witnessed events that many of the CoPap worlds are like human beings, though different in manner , speech and appearance, when an autopsy is performed the same internals are Tresent. Such is with CoPap worlds. They produce cookie cutter worlds. This I will admit is necessary for a large chain organization, for an octopus to survive all it's tentacles must work together, but there in lies the dilemma, you been to one Mac Donalds you have been to them all.

What I see is people that have gone as far as straining the very bonds of good solid friendship. For a dream? No , not just a dream a tangible reality. What we have here is special, different, and all went to great pains to create it. It deserves to live and breathe, unhobbled.
*gets down off of soap box* I thank you.
Grimm
This is a post made by Grimm, an Arborea Developer on their forums.
I wanted to comment on this here simply because what he posted is so far from reality, that it's delusional and self-serving.
What's "self serving" is you hauling one of his posts off his boards, dragging it over here out of context, and refuting it here so you can speak without contradiction and preach to the choir. This is embarassing behavior. Why do you feel compelled to take a kick at him on your boards as they depart?

I expected better of CoPaP staff.
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Post by Fuzz » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:39 am

Al-Kalim wrote:5. Mystara, the world which attracted me to COPAP and on which I have spent the most time, seems to be dying. Not only are the servers and website intermittent, at best, but the quality of the world has, I think, deteriorated. I would argue that Mystara, at least, has fallen victim to the sort of cookie-cutter imagery that started this thread. Six months ago, when Rockhome was still vibrant, it was already showing considerable issues. Items all over the server bore names not in any way associated with Rockhome, but rather with Avlis. At any given time, a player would be more likely to find more characters present from Avlis (and, to a lesser degree, Hala) than native to Mystara. While generally friendly, these Avlissian explorers were often more interested in taking advantage of the generous treasure drops/xp in certain sections of the server than in advancing Rockhome's storyline in any way.

I want to make it clear that I still enjoy Rockhome, and I very much appreciate the hard work that so many people have put into this setting. I'd also like to clarify that, individually, I met some great visitors from Avlis, and I also do not want to make it appear that I am criticizing them. However, whether due to administrative decisions, player base, COPAP configuration, or a combination of the above, the atmosphere of Mystara was negatively--perhaps fatally--impacted.

I will continue to play on Rockhome when possible, but I have come to terms with the realization that, most likely, this server will not be around much longer, and I will most likely lose a character on whom I have spent countless hours. While I recognize the possibility of relocating her to another server, I have come to the decision that, as a Mystaran character, there is no reasonable IC reason to do so.
A large part of this was due to Rockhome's own flaws, and the fact that for a long time, it blatantly disregarded the Articles of CoPaP, thus earning the ire of quite a large section of the playerbase as being "unfair."

This isn't the place for this discussion, I'm just providing the counterpoint. You reap what you sew sometimes.


Edit: I'm not going to comment on anything else, since my opinion is irrelevant, just wanted to clear that one thing up.
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Post by Yau » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:53 am

Al-Kalim wrote:The bad--Avlis is not friendly to new players or new starts of existing COPAP players. While you are welcome to disagree with me, this is based off of my own experience
thats true in my experience too. not easy for new players to get into/involved in the world. sure you can RP-chat all day but it doesnt make you feel part of the world. I know this isnt the place for suggestions but id like to see a guild list on the side of the website main menu and each guild master granted their own webspace so people can get involved easier.

also bad thing about avlis the lag is a real turnoff, sometimes i have to stop playing coz its so bad and only half full.

And seeing people just take one level in a class just to get a PRC or class ability.

apart from that its pretty good PW.
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Post by Al-Kalim » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:23 am

Fuzz wrote:A large part of this was due to Rockhome's own flaws, and the fact that for a long time, it blatantly disregarded the Articles of CoPaP, thus earning the ire of quite a large section of the playerbase as being "unfair."
I certainly recognize that many of the flaws in Rockhome were not the result of outside influences, but because of internal situations. In fact, I would postulate that a good part of the reason that the COPAP world application process has lenghtened is due to the experiences with this member world.

However, from what I have seen, terming the areas in which Rockhome was outside the Articles as "blatant disregard' is rather harsh. The reality is that the Rockhome team, I think, bit off more than they could realistically chew. While it would be fantastic if each member world had several full-time employees, I do not think this is altogether realistic. I, for one, cannot afford to pay their salaries.

While it might be covered during the application process, there is currently no indication among the web-based information regarding how much of an initial and ongoing time commitment membership entails (unless I missed it--also possible). I would venture to bet that most individual members of COPAP have limited amounts of time they can spend with NWN. While I absolutely respect the dedication and contribution of the Avlis team, I don't think other worlds can realistically be expected to gurantee the same sort of time commitment. This is one of those very difficult issues--how do you enforce compliance among a volunteer team? I would suggest that some of the negative comments regarding these volunteers are counterproductive. :)
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Post by Silk » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:36 am

It is your right to express your opinion... as it is mine.

If you feel I have said anything in error, then discuss exactly what I am wrong about?
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Post by Al-Kalim » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:39 am

Vichan Lyonsen wrote:Being the ambassador to a CoPaP WIP (World in Progress) I can address some of these things.
Thanks for the feedback! It definitely helps to get an insiders view of these issues :D

4. Consider giving added voice in COPAP to those who are not specifically tied to existing worlds. I do not in any way want to minimize the contribution of Orleron (thanks for all you do!), but I think there may be, at some level, some difficulty in combining the leadership of Avlis and of COPAP.
I'm not quite sure I follow this...giving added voice to teh running of Copap to people who are not associtated with existing worlds doesnt sound right to me...but then I probably dont understand the comment.
Indeed, part of the reason for the confusion is that I'm not really sure just what I'm suggesting. It seems like the fact that Orleron has ultimate veto power over COPAP issues is potentially problematic. I certainly do not want to imply that I have seen any evidence of problematic occurences, indeed, I have nothing but respect for his dedication to both Avlis and COPAP. As an ambassador, perhaps you can give a better view, but it seems to me that, even if we are not yet to that point, it would ultimately be advisable to turn control of COPAP over to the ambassadors, removing veto power.
5. Honestly listen to and consider the feedback provided by the team from Arborea. They have far more experience with the membership application process than do most.
Well the world leaders would have to chime in on this, but I would venture to say that Avlis has several years worth of application screening experience over any other CoPaP worlds....
I tend to think that, one way or another, the process is broken, as we have not seen any new worlds actually gain membership in quite some time. If a goal of CoPaP is to continue to expand, then I think listening to feedback from those who have undergone the application process is absolutely necessary. I certainly think that the representatives from Avlis and the other member worlds should also be heard, and I am not implying that CoPaP should necessarily embrace the changes suggested by Arborea (I don't even know what those issues are, so I certainly cannot advise one way or another on them). However, I think it is important to at least listen.
Too strict and every world turns into the same thing.
Too accomodating and the worlds become unbalanced.
This is probably the most accurate statement made yet.....
An excellent point!
Last edited by Al-Kalim on Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Klazaroth » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:40 am

This is terrible that Arborea is being bashed/unbashed even how civilised the tone is.

The stance Silk had posted from Grimm is supported by some of the Arborean staff/players and as well not supported by some of us.

Like me for example, who is currently DMing for Arborea. When Arborea decided to leave the CoPaP worlds I was truly shocked and stunned ... I was feeling tinged and sick for the whole day.

All I want to do is have fun with the friends I have made in both of these servers.

Guidelines and rules are important ... too much of the whole story is covered. I don't even know a quarter of it. It's much more then "Arborea doesn't like the guidelines so they are going to flog" ...

I hope the link can be remade in the future. I need to find out more.
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Post by Micah » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:48 am

Yau wrote:
Al-Kalim wrote:The bad--Avlis is not friendly to new players or new starts of existing COPAP players. While you are welcome to disagree with me, this is based off of my own experience
thats true in my experience too. not easy for new players to get into/involved in the world. sure you can RP-chat all day but it doesnt make you feel part of the world. I know this isnt the place for suggestions but id like to see a guild list on the side of the website main menu and each guild master granted their own webspace so people can get involved easier.

also bad thing about avlis the lag is a real turnoff, sometimes i have to stop playing coz its so bad and only half full.

And seeing people just take one level in a class just to get a PRC or class ability.

apart from that its pretty good PW.
Part of the beauty of CoPaP...is the diversity of the servers and worlds. Each of the Avlis servers are different; Hala, Outlands, Abyss are all wildly different; Ithillia is coming as are others.

Some of these worlds are easier to start on as a newbie. Some are harder. Some don't smile upon random high levels popping out of nowhere with l33t g34r. That's their choice too.

The trick is to remember a few things: A high level character coming to a new world is going to face the same difficulties as a brand new 1st level character would. They are a nobody. If you want to really enjoy a server for something other than exploring you are going to have to invest the time and RP, get involved in organizations, and meet tons and tons of other characters. This does not happen overnight.

The way I see it...this is just as much an IC thing as an OOC thing. This predjudice or whatever makes sense to me. Each world/server has its own flavor, and some characters don't fit into the concept. If Joe Uber walked over to Abyss404 under the new linkup ideas with his load of +5s...he'll stick out like a sore thumb, and probably be bored out of his mind. Why? Because it doesn't fit the world. This isn't unfair at all. It is simply the way of the cosmos.

This goes similarly for newbies. Sometimes yes its hard to get into the swing of playing here. Cliquey groups ignore you, tons of players flat out ignore newbies, and you can't go out by yourself and pwn things like a hero because you are level 1. That's the state of the world! You have to be a bit of a go-getter on whatever world you are, learning as you go and trying to get involved. Eventually 95% of the people will find their place and have a damn good time. Those that don't probably won't look back. That's cool.

Sure...there is DM favoritism a bit too. And those 2% of the people that have 99% of the wealth. And all the other things that you see that make you feel out of place or unable to "fit" that you don't think you can change. This can all be improved for you...but it has to be done ICly. You're not going to get DM attention as a newbie or an old-offworlder unless you really work for it...the same goes for a million gold pieces or that hot piece of +4 gear. This goes on any server anywhere. Keep in mind, that the people who have the wealth and get all the DM love were new once too, and busted their asses for what they have. And there are more players than DMs anywhere you go...so these guys (who work their asses off to help everybody have fun) don't always see you. You just gotta accept this.

Right...so I'm preaching. In my own defense, I probably have just as many complaints as compliments or defenses of CoPaP, Avlis, or any given world. But I'll be damned if I don't love this place for what it is and all it has to offer. That's why I spend (waste?) so much of my time playing and building and dming here.

As for Arborea - it's their world, let 'em do what they want. If it doesn't fit into CoPaP, no harm done eh?
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Post by Themicles » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:56 am

Al-Kalim wrote:I am not at all in the know regarding why Arborea chose to leave, but I think the name-calling seen above is entirely counterproductive. I feel certain that the Arborea team understood the Articles of Confederation upon joining, and, from what I have seen, they and COPAP have acted responsibly and according to the Articles in the withdrawal of Arborea's membership application.
Knowing what I know, I'm not entirely sure Arborea fully understood the articles. There was at least one thing that I know about recently that would not have fit well within the articles. But since Arborea does not want to discuss their reasons, I wont go into details on what I think were their reasons. ;)
Al-Kalim wrote:I think COPAP is facing some pretty big decisions pretty soon, and I recommend confronting whatever constructive feedback has been received from the Arborea team as a learning experience, rather than an exercise in name-calling.
It appeared to me, at least, that Arborea had problems with Avlis from day one. Possibly before the team was even formed.
Al-Kalim wrote: I have been a COPAP member for more than a year, now. In that time, I believe, no new worlds have successfully joined COPAP (I might be wrong here, and one or two of the six may have joined within the time that I have been a member). This, to me, represents a significant problem. The really attractive idea of COPAP is that it will integrate numerous worlds: I don't think COPAP is living up to that goal, for whatever reason.
Well, let's look at a few things:
  • Most new WIPs are/were manned by a team from 1 to maybe 10 people. And I'd have to say that 10 is a stretch of an estimate.
    Most new WIPs have slowed down, or completely stalled in development, due to their developers' real lives, or waning interest in NWN.
    Those that are still around, but haven't linked, have been taking their time to get things working well. Outlands has been around for a while, and I must admit that I didn't think it'd ever reach linking. But their team finally grew a bit, and it'll be a fully linked world any day now.
    Abyss404, while considered a linked world, has never actually gotten a portal up and running. IMHO, I feel this is a result of leadership changes over there. Not the fault of either leader, but a result of things getting lost in the shuffle, if you ask me.
    Several of the Toril PWs split off because they had a different vision of item balance than the CoPaP Articles would have allowed. I do hope they're doing well, though. I may one day check their servers out.
Al-Kalim wrote: 1. For starters, Ea's server and website have been down lately--can we even consider them a functioning world?
Always had a very small staff that is constantly busy with their real lives, than just this silly game. ;)
Al-Kalim wrote: 2. Tairis'nadur's website makes it clear that this is not a setting meant for new players. This is not meant as a criticism of them, but I think most COPAP newbies, or those looking to start a new character, see that and take it to heart: Tairis'nadur is not the place for me right now.
Yes, that we do. I, as creator and World Leader of Tairis'nadur, chose to make this clear. Why? Well, this started back in the early days. We linked before really, truly, being ready. We didn't have much for new players to do. We've never had a large staff. And we really didn't want to use Jerto like quests. I love Jerto, but doesn't that kid ever grow up, or get a break from making potions?! :lol:
Al-Kalim wrote: 5. Mystara, the world which attracted me to COPAP and on which I have spent the most time, seems to be dying. Not only are the servers and website intermittent, at best, but the quality of the world has, I think, deteriorated. I would argue that Mystara, at least, has fallen victim to the sort of cookie-cutter imagery that started this thread. Six months ago, when Rockhome was still vibrant, it was already showing considerable issues. Items all over the server bore names not in any way associated with Rockhome, but rather with Avlis. At any given time, a player would be more likely to find more characters present from Avlis (and, to a lesser degree, Hala) than native to Mystara. While generally friendly, these Avlissian explorers were often more interested in taking advantage of the generous treasure drops/xp in certain sections of the server than in advancing Rockhome's storyline in any way.

I want to make it clear that I still enjoy Rockhome, and I very much appreciate the hard work that so many people have put into this setting. I'd also like to clarify that, individually, I met some great visitors from Avlis, and I also do not want to make it appear that I am criticizing them. However, whether due to administrative decisions, player base, COPAP configuration, or a combination of the above, the atmosphere of Mystara was negatively--perhaps fatally--impacted.

I will continue to play on Rockhome when possible, but I have come to terms with the realization that, most likely, this server will not be around much longer, and I will most likely lose a character on whom I have spent countless hours. While I recognize the possibility of relocating her to another server, I have come to the decision that, as a Mystaran character, there is no reasonable IC reason to do so.
Avlissian explorers, nor Avlis items did this to Mystara. Ferus is a busy man and cannot devote the time to Mystara that it really deserves. Add on to that the fact that nothing gets imported into the modules without Ferus doing it himself. This is good for version control, but for someone as busy as he is, it slows down progress.

I'll also note that many Avlis items were actually sold on merchants that were placed throughout Rockhome shortly after it joined CoPaP. Avlis did not do this, nor did they ask it to be done.
Al-Kalim wrote: 6. Avlis is impressive. The long-time, dedicated player base exigent in Avlis is overwhelming--both in a good way and a bad way.
...
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Among the four starts, I have had the pleasure of about five minutes of DM interaction (I am genuinely grateful to the DM, don't know the name, who was willing to give me this attention, and I certainly don't want to make it sound otherwise. However, when compared to the DM attention in the past in Rockhome, and in various new worlds like Arborea, it just does not compare).
I'm sorry, but you have to understand that, with such a large player base, there is NO WAY Avlis can give out the same amount of DM attention to every person, all the time. I've been around for much longer than you have, and have never truly been in a DM plot. I don't count the first big sereg invasion that brought the Mikona server to it's knees all that time ago. That was laggy chaos. ;P
Al-Kalim wrote: I have read through the Avlis source material, but the fact is that it is too much to fully internalize for an occasional player. I really do not remember what the differences are among T'nanshi, Mikona, Elysia, etc., much less all the different deities. At this point, I simply do not anticipate spending the time in Avlis necessary to really learn all these things--while I admire the effort put into this world, I would rather invest what time I have in a setting which I will enjoy more.
Personally, I completely understand this. Avlis may not be for you, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some of us have limited time, and have different tastes on immersion, and how deep they want to get into a world.

Al-Kalim wrote: 1. Eliminate the crafting system from the Avlis-compliant world model. While I recognize the generosity of the Avlis Dev team in sharing this system, I believe that it, more than anything else, enforces the cliquishness of Avlis and spreads the distribution of Avlis-specific items throughout COPAP. I would have no problem with banning the Bioware crafting system, as well. Ideally, the dev team would be willing to share their crafting system source code with other worlds, allowing freedom to alter the system as desired, so long as it remains relatively balanced.
The crafting system is not mandated. It is each and every worlds choice as to whether or not they use any system offered. If they develop their own system, or use one from the NWN community, then it needs only follow the Articles.
Al-Kalim wrote: 3. Actively recruit to the Avlis team those interested in expanding the scope of opportunities for Avlis players. As long as people are volunteering their time for new worlds with the thinking that they will be a great place for their high-level friends to explore, we will be facing the alternative of either disappointing the staff members or creating worlds which invite domination by Avlis characters.
Avlis is constantly recruiting. I, personally, think that this suggestion is counterproductive to your desired goal. NWN is an old game. The community isn't quite booming like it used to. The more people Avlis recruits for their staff, the harder it is for the rest of us CoPaP worlds to get new staff. I know, I've been dealing with this for a long time. Tairis'nadur's link to Avlis was in the works long before CoPaP existed. Before Mythos actually linked, but not before Ferus and Orleron talked about linking Mystara.
Al-Kalim wrote: 4. Consider giving added voice in COPAP to those who are not specifically tied to existing worlds. I do not in any way want to minimize the contribution of Orleron (thanks for all you do!), but I think there may be, at some level, some difficulty in combining the leadership of Avlis and of COPAP.
You give the impression that you think Orleron runs the CoPaP. He doesn't. CoPaP, was originally administered by the four founding leaders. Orleron, Pitched_Black, Ferus, and myself. Once it began to grow, things were done by majority vote. And Orleron's vote doesn't weigh more than anyone else's.

Now, if you mean you think that WIPs should be allowed to vote on issues, such as amendments to the articles... I'm not sure if I agree, or don't. On one hand, WIPs are, by their nature, unexperienced in what it is to adminster a live world in the CoPaP. Perceptions of balance change drastically between looking from the outside in, and actually being linked, dealing with the issues every day. But, on the other hand, issues being voted on may well affect them once they're linked.
Al-Kalim wrote: 5. Honestly listen to and consider the feedback provided by the team from Arborea. They have far more experience with the membership application process than do most.
I'm more than willing to listen to Arborea. But there are some things that they believe to be the fault of Avlis that just aren't what they think.

There has been, and always will be, some kind of perception about Avlis that people think is true, and how people think things work behind the scenes, that is utterly false. For the last few years, I've always thought in the back of my mind "If they could only see it from the inside, like I do, they'd understand that they were wrong."
A wise man does not dwell on his past. He learns from it, he grows from it, and then moves ahead into his future.

And some wise words from a wise man. :P
Orleron wrote:You have to excuse Themi. Tact, diplomacy, and softness are not his best traits, but he does not mean anything by his writing. He's a nice guy. You just get used to it after a while because he doesn't seem to learn. :)
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