Knockdown, and improved knockdown

Alphonse · Post by **Alphonse** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:02 am

Considering how all the feats seem to change with every release by Bioware, can anyone explain how knockdown, and improved knockdown work to me including what stats they use, particularly how they are going to work after 1.65 gets put in?

Cheers guys

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:02 pm

How they should work (which hopefully is what they've done in 1.65) is as follows...

A player attempts a knockdown. Because its a special attack (like called shot) it is done at a -4 penalty.

If the attack hits (i.e. greater or equal to opponents AC) then the opponent makes a discipline roll. The DC of the knockdown attempt is the "modified attack roll + size advantage".

"modified attack roll" = what you rolled plus all modifiers including the -4 penalty

"size advantage" = +4 for every size category that the attacker is larger than the defender

It is not possible to knockdown opponents that are more than 1 size category bigger than you.

Improved knockdown means that the knockdown DC is as if the attacker was 1 size category bigger than he really is (basically another +4 to the DC).

What happens at the moment is that the +4 bonus for size category difference (including the +4 which comes from Improved Knockdown) is actually added to the attack roll as well as the DC!!!

This is the silly bit, because if you think about it, by doing this "difficult" knockdown maneouver, you are supposed to take a -4 penalty. But the size advantage gives you bonuses to hit! E.g. a Wemic with Improved Knockdown would get a massive +8 to-hit against a halfling (it might even be +12 - need to check) ! That is better than a normal attack.

EDIT: The knockdown just uses your attack bonuses plus your size. The Discipline roll uses STR bonus (that's the targets STR not the attackers).

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:19 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote: It is not possible to knockdown opponents that are more than 1 size category bigger than you.

This i'm not really sure of...i get knocked down in dragonform by dwarven mercs, and i think a dragon is huge. Also this would mean that halflings can't use knockdown on giants...is this true?

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:21 pm

You still count as medium when shapechanged to dragon form.

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:23 pm

Gairus wrote:You still count as medium when shapechanged to dragon form.

*rolls eyes, thrown her knockdown feat in the litter bin...

*

Arandil · Post by **Arandil** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:40 pm

I assume Divinia is knocking people down to heal them better?

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:23 pm

Arandil wrote:I assume Divinia is knocking people down to heal them better?

Some people just can't hold still while applying medication, so you have to gently deposit them on their bum...

Arandil · Post by **Arandil** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:25 pm

I assume this is the medication applied on a large stick somewhere uncomfortable...Divinia has suddenly aquired a new scary aspect for me...

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:41 pm

indulge me. With a strength of say 20 and IKD. what Discp check would not fail that!?

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:43 pm

Talwin Hawkins wrote:indulge me. With a strength of say 20 and IKD. what Discp check would not fail that!?

Its their STR that is important not yours! Well, yours is but only because it gets added to the attack roll (assuming you're not using a Weapon Finesse).

To answer your question you need to supply the following information:

Your BAB/AB whatever it's called (including all modifiers, attack bonuses, STR/DEX bonus, weapon bonuses etc.)
Your size
The size of your opponent

Slade_brimstone · Post by **Slade_brimstone** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:50 pm

im prttey sure you can floor things bigger then you .. ive seen a halfling KD a oger before

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:51 pm

im actually thinking of myself as the person trying NOT TO get knocked down. SO lets make up some nice easy numbers.

THEY have a Bab of 20. A strength of 20 and are human sized, and have NO weapon finesse

I wanted to know what discp i needed to not get knocked down.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:57 pm

Talwin Hawkins wrote:im actually thinking of myself as the person trying NOT TO get knocked down. SO lets make up some nice easy numbers.

THEY have a Bab of 20. A strength of 20 and are human sized, and have NO weapon finesse

I wanted to know what discp i needed to not get knocked down.

OK, BAB of 20
STR of 20 gives +5 to-hit
For arguments sake, lets assume they have a +2 weapon, so their total "to-hit" bonus is going to be

20+5+2 = 27

OK, lets say they roll a 10 on average.

Attack roll = 27+10 = 37

For a knockdown (using 1.65 rules) they get -4 penalty, so

Knockdown attack roll = 37-4 = 33

For argument's sake, lets say that you are the same size as the attacker, then that's the DC of the Discipline check that you must make (DC = 33).

Let's say that on average you roll a 10, that means you need a discpline of 23 to stay on your feet!

Of course if you rolled less than 10, or they rolled higher you're in trouble.

Of course they have to hit you first - that's the best defense. High AC, and Concealment help a great deal.

BTW, the AI seems to cheat in my experience .. hmm, well maybe its not "cheating" exactly. But those dwarven mercs never attempt to knockdown me, yet when I palyed a wimpy mage they always had a go. I think maybe the AI decides I am a fighter and therefore it doesn't attempt knockdown, or (worse) it looks up my AC or Discipline check and then decides not to knockdown

This is unconfirmed, and it maybe something else in the AI that stopped those dwarf mercs from doing knockdown. Anyone else get knocked down by them?

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:10 pm

so discp of 42 would in effect mean i cannot be knockdown by this attacker?

Arandil · Post by **Arandil** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:17 pm

Dwarven mercs never attempt knockdown on Quick, but then he has a Discipline and AC both comfortably over 40..so maybe it detects one of those. He also has fighter levels, which may impact the check. I think when he was lower level they did try it..but that was a long time ago..anyone else have any clues on this?

engelhar · Post by **engelhar** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:31 pm

From my experience, it is your AC that makes them decide whether to try to use KD. When my AC went up 3 or 4, they stopped trying to use KD on me.

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:37 pm

Slightly off topic, but other than Dex, items and the armour feat, is there a way to increase your AC? does it go up per level? or is it defferent for different classes?

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:37 pm

Talwin Hawkins wrote:so discp of 42 would in effect mean i cannot be knockdown by this attacker?

Correct

You would see "Improved Knockdown Attempted: *resisted*" apear.

Keep in mind, the max base of a skill is 43 at level 40....

Talwin Hawkins · Post by **Talwin Hawkins** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:41 pm

Enverex wrote:
Talwin Hawkins wrote:so discp of 42 would in effect mean i cannot be knockdown by this attacker?
Correct

You would see "Improved Knockdown Attempted: *resisted*" apear.

Keep in mind, the max base of a skill is 43 at level 40....

lol point taken

KenLie · Post by **KenLie** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:27 pm

I don't really know in which size category Dwarves fall into, but I do know that my dwarf knocks down firegiants...(IKD)

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:57 pm

The AI cheats: Golden douple hammer mercs stopped using KD as soon as I upped ym AC:

spokeydonkey · Post by **spokeydonkey** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:24 pm

Arandil wrote:Dwarven mercs never attempt knockdown on Quick, but then he has a Discipline and AC both comfortably over 40..so maybe it detects one of those. He also has fighter levels, which may impact the check. I think when he was lower level they did try it..but that was a long time ago..anyone else have any clues on this?

Yes, Dala went through this too. As soon as your AC hits a certain level they stop trying to knock you down. I haven't checked if they also stop trying to knock you down when your discipline gets high enough with a low AC... guess it's time to start strolling into merc spawns naked...

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:27 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:The AI cheats: Golden douple hammer mercs stopped using KD as soon as I upped ym AC:

Nasty little dwarves! I thought it was something like that, btu wasn't sure. Looks like the evidence is stacked against them though now.

Oh, not all dwavf mercs are bad though eh Ken

KenLie wrote:I don't really know in which size category Dwarves fall into, but I do know that my dwarf knocks down firegiants...(IKD)

Dwarves are the same size category as humans, elves, half-orcs, etc. which are all medium. Gnomes, halflings, goblins, kobolds are small. Ogres, Wemics are large. Not sure about lizards and gnolls - probably medium I think. Giants (even fire giants) are large too I think. So a dwarf can knockdown a fire-giant, but a gnome can't

Wemics can knock down bigger stuff, like that Sand Lizard that umm... which one was it? Kai'Rai I think took down - nice work

Post by **RCon** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:38 pm

Not sure about lizards size category then. I saw a lizardman PC knockdown a coal dragon once. If dragons are supposed to be Huge, a Medium size creature shouldn't be able to knock them down, right? Or are dragons Large, rather than Huge?

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:45 pm

RCon wrote:Not sure about lizards size category then. I saw a lizardman PC knockdown a coal dragon once. If dragons are supposed to be Huge, a Medium size creature shouldn't be able to knock them down, right? Or are dragons Large, rather than Huge?

Dragons are Huge, Lizardmen are Large. It doesn't make much sense as there is a tiny difference between Medium and Large (Human >> Ogre) but a HUGE difference from Large to Huge (Ogre >> Dragon). Oh well, just another silly flaw I guess. Gnolls are also Large.