Help develop my character

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:28 pm

In light of some recent threads (such as "Making a tough character") and given that the following is something I'm starting to think about a lot and can't come to a conclusion about, I'm asking your help.

My main character, Sinomi Sii, is a Necromancer 5/ Pale Master 7. After reaching 10 levels of pale master (probably a few months if I return at my original pace; who knows how long if I curb the addiction) I will need to fill 5 more levels before I can return to taking pale master levels. The original idea was to return to wizard levels, but now I'm not so sure. Below are all the IC options (in other words, if it's not listed here, that means that even if it'd be a good build, I don't consider it sufficiently IC for Sinomi), and what benefits they have.

Sinomi's main goal is to be difficult to kill. He cares much less about how well he can kill others. When he must engage in combat, he usually uses invisibility and stealth. He'll also try to paralyze or hold his opponents in order to kill them easily. Having said that...

5 more wizard levels:
Reason: Continue arcane studies and power as a mage.
Advantages: much faster spell progression; bonus wizard feat.
Disadvantages: low hit points.
Thoughts: This was the original idea, but it seems that it would help him least in getting what he's looking for now. There are a few defensive spells he's gain access to quicker (ethereal visage, greater stoneskin, shadow shield), but, as noted, he'd gain low hit points. This path also lacks the defensive advantages of the other options.

Rogue levels:
Reason: Further develop use of stealth as a main technique.
Advantages: High skill points (could be used in Tumble, for example); sneak attack; light armor prof.; a few more weapon profs.; Evade.
Disadvantages: lose spell progression; sneak attack is an offensive benefit (an advantage in itself, but not Sinomi's main goal).

Assassin levels:
Reason: Further develop use of stealth and paralysis attacks as a main technique.
Advantages: Death attack (with Sinomi's high INT, it would have decent DC after a few levels); a couple extra spells (ghostly visage 1x/day, darkness 1x/day); poison resistance bonus; rogue profs.
Disadvantages: lose spell progression; lacks rogue skill points; death attack only occurs in limited situations and is an offensive benefit.

Fighter levels:
Reason: To learn use of armor/shields for much better defense.
Advantages: All armor profs. and shield prof.; high hit points; bonus feats at level 2 and 4.
Disadvantages: lose spell progression; lacks rogue skill points; requires still spell feat to take advantage of.

Feats: whichever class I take, I plan to take expertise and improved expertise. If fighter class, and perhaps if rogue or assassin, I'd take still spell feat. Other options if fighter include disarm or knockdown.

What I'm thinking now: The benefits from rogue or assassion levels don't outweigh the loss of spell progression; wearing heavy armor and a shield plus the high hit points of the fighter class might outweigh that loss. So, I'm thinking of taking four fighter levels and one more wizard level (which would give sixth level spells, which include the two defensive spells mentioned above or serves to give more room in preparing stilled spells). Plus, it'd look pretty cool to have a spell-casting pale master walk around heavily armored and might do the most to help his goal of being tough to kill. The main disadvantage is not only that he'd lose spell progression, but that'd he'd have to prepare his spells with still spell feat (i.e. each spell is prepared one spell level higher). In other words, it greatly slows down his progression as an arcane caster.

One last point: an obvious point with this build is that I get most of the fighter benefits I'm concerned with (other than the hit points) with just one level of fighter. So, I could take 1 fighter level and 4 wizard levels, but I think that's typically frowned upon.

So...any thoughts anyone?

spokeydonkey · Post by **spokeydonkey** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:39 pm

I ended up taking fighter levels for my PM. Ironically, the initial plan was to take 10 mage levels, then 30 PM for the max armor class, picking up armor and shield profic along the way. Due to IC reasons, I picked up fighter levels instead.

The advantage there is the extremely high AC without needing gear. I can push mine to 42 without expertise on or anything better than +2 gear. 46 if I haste. 56 if I improved expertise. Add on to that your pale master HP and immunities, and you see the advantage. As far as being tough to kill, that's probably the best way to go.

What would be interesting is a Shadowdancer/Wizard/Pale Master. Since Pale masters are supposed to gain the ability of undead to skulk about (hide and MS as class skills) it would be an obvious extension to be able to fade in and out of sight like ghosts. Fun RP on that one, but not really what you're looking for.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:47 pm

spokeydonkey wrote:What would be interesting is a Shadowdancer/Wizard/Pale Master. Since Pale masters are supposed to gain the ability of undead to skulk about (hide and MS as class skills) it would be an obvious extension to be able to fade in and out of sight like ghosts. Fun RP on that one, but not really what you're looking for.

Yeah, I think that'd be very, very cool. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to take Sinomi down that path because of low DEX. So, he really has to become more of a "tank" pale master (he does have a high CON).

spokeydonkey · Post by **spokeydonkey** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:50 pm

The one thing to watch for in the fighter build is the weight of armor...

If you have less than a 16 STR, full plate and tower shield is going to be tough to manage...

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:11 pm

spokeydonkey wrote:The one thing to watch for in the fighter build is the weight of armor...

If you have less than a 16 STR, full plate and tower shield is going to be tough to manage...

That's a good point. My STR is only 9, so I'd rely heavily on Bull Strength or need to use lighter armor/shields (or probably both), thus lessening the advantage of the build. At some point, pale masters may get the +4 STR bonus they should get with the undead arm, which would help, but who knows when that will happen.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:46 pm

spokeydonkey wrote:What would be interesting is a Shadowdancer/Wizard/Pale Master. Since Pale masters are supposed to gain the ability of undead to skulk about (hide and MS as class skills) it would be an obvious extension to be able to fade in and out of sight like ghosts. Fun RP on that one, but not really what you're looking for.

I can smell the cheese from here! Too bad you didn't go that route or i'd be calling your character Da'la W'enn'en now.

spokeydonkey wrote:The one thing to watch for in the fighter build is the weight of armor...

If you have less than a 16 STR, full plate and tower shield is going to be tough to manage...

My bard used to manage full plate, tower shield and bastard sword (79.4 pounds) just fine with STR 14. STR 15 makes it easier now but the real trick is to not be carrying a shitload of aloe, desert lillies and other assorted crap.

szabot wrote:At some point, pale masters may get the +4 STR bonus they should get with the undead arm, which would help, but who knows when that will happen.

While i agree about palemasters being gimped in NWN, i think that their beefed up deathless vigor (3 hp/level instead of 3 hp total) makes up for the loss of bonus strength. Giving them caster level would be enough.

On topic now: The easiest way to toughen your pale master up is to give him just a couple of fighter levels. Assuming that you have an even number of PM and wizard levels you should get bab 11 by level 20, enough to get three attacks per round. Sinomi is way too scrawny so the weight of your gear would be a problem unless you could find light weight equipment (mithral splint mail and stuff like that). You could cast your buffs before donning armour and still just the spells you need to cast on the fly. It can work, but this kind of characters is difficult to play unless you have planned things a bit from the beginning and in your case, STR 9 is going to be a huge handicap.

In your case, i'd probably stick to wizard whie taking pale master levels once in a while.

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:50 pm

Actually, I alluded to it before, but I'll just say it now...

Tenser's. Live it, love it. Use it often.

The Avlis version stacks with your Pale Master bonuses, and also automagically turns you into a fighting powerhouse. Couple with some fighter levels to get a focus and specialization in a weapon, and suddenly you're a beefy fighting caster. With a bony arm. And immune to crits.

On an aside, I probably wouldn't aim for Assassin... from what I've heard from players that have tried and a couple DMs, getting 2 PrCs unlocked is nigh impossible, as it really should be, considering the amount of devotion required to get one PrC in the first place.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:57 pm

Fuzz wrote:Actually, I alluded to it before, but I'll just say it now...

Tenser's. Live it, love it. Use it often.

The Avlis version stacks with your Pale Master bonuses, and also automagically turns you into a fighting powerhouse. Couple with some fighter levels to get a focus and specialization in a weapon, and suddenly you're a beefy fighting caster. With a bony arm. And immune to crits.

But Tenser's doesn't give me what I'd get - and what I want - from fighter levels: armor and shield proficiencies. As I said, Sinomi's less concerned with being a proficient killer, more concerned with not getting killed. I'm not even considering any weapon feats.

The low strength issue could be dealt with to some extent by focusing on finding low-weight armor and strength-enhancing items. This would make Sinomi a bit item-dependent, however.

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:02 pm

How about just getting wizard and pm levels then? If you want to avoid getting killed, why get into combat at all. Hide behind your supa-buffed pets, invisible.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:18 pm

Tangleroot wrote:How about just getting wizard and pm levels then? If you want to avoid getting killed, why get into combat at all. Hide behind your supa-buffed pets, invisible.

Unfortunately, pale master pets often get destroyed quite easily, even when fully buffed. This strategy hasn't worked too well for that reason.

Dralix · Post by **Dralix** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:43 pm

szabot wrote:But Tenser's doesn't give me what I'd get - and what I want - from fighter levels: armor and shield proficiencies.

While this may be true, Tenser's will in fact make Sinomi harder to kill. First of all, dead opponents can't kill you.

Second, the increase in hit points and AC will help.

Third, Tenser's just rocks!

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:49 pm

Get wizzy levels, even the puniest elemental is 10x better than the PM pets.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:04 pm

Tangleroot wrote:Get wizzy levels, even the puniest elemental is 10x better than the PM pets.

Believe me, I know. However, if I didn't use the pale master summons, what kind of pale master would I be?

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:07 pm

Smart one?

Nah, fully buffed pm pets can kill some stuff that's not too dangerous. They could terrorize commoners, at least.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:08 pm

Tangleroot wrote:...They could terrorize commoners, at least.

Oh, goodie.

Hylia · Post by **Hylia** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:17 pm

Just when Farmer Moe thought it was safe to go back into his field...

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:27 am

the thrid lvl undead spell kicks the shit out of pale master undeads. Ramsy killed three of joriah's undead in a row!

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:35 am

Comeing from an epic armor wareing mage. Just do it.

Tiras has 10 str too.

You get used to still spell relatively quickly. You can take the armor off to buff. It is even more IC to remove armor to sleep then buff up, then get dressed each day. It is only the spells cast during the dayly travels that need to be stilled.

True strike and darkness are verbal only. That means you can use them in armor.

Nothing says survivability more than putting on heavy armor and a shield. Except one thing...

At 11 palemaster you will also qualify for epic spells. Get epic mage armor.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:18 am

WrathOG777 wrote:Comeing from an epic armor wareing mage. Just do it.

Tiras has 10 str too.

You get used to still spell relatively quickly. You can take the armor off to buff. It is even more IC to remove armor to sleep then buff up, then get dressed each day. It is only the spells cast during the dayly travels that need to be stilled.

True strike and darkness are verbal only. That means you can use them in armor.

Nothing says survivability more than putting on heavy armor and a shield. Except one thing...

At 11 palemaster you will also qualify for epic spells. Get epic mage armor.

Are you recommending fighter levels then? How does Tiras deal with the weight and low strength issue?

One small point: Pale Masters don't actually get epic spells until pale master level 15. Not sure why that is. In any case, that means I can't take Epic Mage Armor until level 26 (no feat gained at level 25).

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:30 am

right. worth the wait anyway.

Yes, and not just one either. I would suggest two fighter levels. Four if you have a specific weapon you wish to specialize in.

Disapline. Armor. sheild 1d6 more hitpoints per lvl. another attack. weapon spec. and extra feats ever two lvls to help pick up expertise, blindfighting, and whatever other defence feat fits your plan.

How did I deal with the weight? Well, later on, I got really light plate, like you suggest, a +2 str item and am always bull str. there is 10 wt plate out there. Earlyer...

A magic bag. carry nothing extra, just your gear. Everything else fits in the 80% bag or does not go with you. It takes disapline.

But sacrifices must be made if you want to realize your dreams.

Fire Monkey · Post by **Fire Monkey** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:17 am

With the relatively slow spell progression of your current mage/PM, wouldn?t still spell be quite expensive to use in terms of spells and available spell slots?

I also personally don?t recommend carrying weight that you can?t carry ?naturally?. It limits your item slots by making you reliant on wearing certain things. If you are relying on spells to keep you unencumbered one dispel or bad timing on the duration of your spells and you are screwed.

If you want to be real tough you could scrap Sinomi and start again aiming for this character

http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/charac ... dlord.html

Aden_Coraxe · Post by **Aden_Coraxe** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:59 pm

A few notes on taking rogue levels

this is all mainly related to skill points, sneak attack doesnt matter really to you since your going for defense

Hide - no better defense then not being seen
tumble- you covered that already
Parry- yeh you can all see i love it. You already have lots of things considered AC, buffs etc. with a decent parry you add the chance to block 3 attacks a round

just some thoughts on rogues.

Aside from rogue i would go straight caster

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:52 pm

Thanks for all the input everyone. I've tried to consider everything that's been written here. I still have plenty of time until I'll need to make a decision though.

One thing that I perhaps need a team ruling on: my character would get most of the benefits he's looking for by taking still spell feat and one fighter level. Is taking only one level in a class always frowned upon, or is it acceptable if there's sufficient reason? If the latter, do the reasons I've given consitute sufficient reason?

Dralix · Post by **Dralix** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:17 pm

You might want to consider the possibility of finding an armor you can cast in without failure ...

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:22 pm

But there's the matter of the shield, though. Shields with reduced arcane casting failure are very rare (virtually non-existant, i'd say).