Pale Master spell acquisition?

[modigliani]

Howdy, gang. Quick questions:

I know Pale Masters gain spells per day at the rate of 1 per 2 PM levels, but that the caster level is that of your spellcasting class in terms of duration and other level-dependent factors. But I'm not clear on spell acquisition in terms of:

1. Would a sorcerer 6 / PM 8 know and be able to cast 4th level spells (i.e., the same number of overall spells as a sorcerer 10), or just more 1st to 3rd level spells?
2. Do sorcerers get to choose new spells at level up every 2 PM levels, or do you need to take another level of sorcerer to change your spells?
3. What is the bug regarding alternating classes at level up (assuming this is IC)? If you take PM, then sorcerer, then want to take PM, do you need a DM to unlock PM again?

Thanks.

[Khaelindra]

1) yes, you cast spells as a lvl 10 sorcerer, but at caster level 6. PM is the only class that actually allows you to cast a 5d6 Cone of Cold...

2) no idea

3) open=open

[Tangleroot]

As I understand it, sorc 6 PM 8 has spells on level 6+(8/2) = 10th . So, level 5 spells even. Just for effectiveness those spells are level 6 only, so fireball does 6d6, turn/level spells last 6 turns.

[Final Shinryuu]

That sorc/pale master will be able to cast 4th and 5th level spells, but he won't know any.

Let me repeat that. As you gain PM levels, you will NOT learn new sorcerer spells.

That's why wizard works much better for PM, they can learn spells other ways.

[Khaelindra]

That sorc/pale master will be able to cast 4th and 5th level spells, but he won't know any.

Let me repeat that. As you gain PM levels, you will NOT learn new sorcerer spells.

That's why wizard works much better for PM, they can learn spells other ways.

Well, that answers your number 2) then...

Well, an occasional sorc-level between the PM-levels should not be too much trouble...

Hmm...i'm not familiar with the specific requirement for PM, but if you wouldn't need a specific spelllevel of mastery, you could theoretically cast a 1d6 fireball as for instance fighter/wizard/PM, no?

[Midknight]

Nope, you need at least arcane spellcasting lvl 3 to make a palemaster. That means a level 5 wizard, at least.

[Final Shinryuu]

Or sorcerer.

Wizard, Bard, and Sorcerer are all arcane spellcasters

[szabot]

Nope, you need at least arcane spellcasting lvl 3 to make a palemaster. That means a level 5 wizard, at least.

Actually, you only need three levels as an arcane spellcaster. So, a level 3 wiz or sorc can become a pale master

[Dralix]

That wiz, sorc, or bard will have to take 10 non PrC levels before gaining lvl 11 PM. Assuming you take those 10 levels in the same class, you'll have at least a caster level of 10. But you could still do something like wiz3/fighter7/PMxx

[mortzestus]

About your first question, your suggested character would have as many spell slots as a level 10 sorcerer but he only knows as many spells as a level 6 one. However, you could use your level 4 and 5 spell slots with metamagic feats, even though you wouldn't know any spells of those levels. Anyway... pale master is not a good option for sorcerers unless you are planning on going for at least twenty sorcerer levels.

Going off topic a bit, there have been quite a few threads on pale masters lately, all of them mentioning that it's too bad that they just get spell slots and not caster level. And, since a few changes have been done lately to bring Avlissian magic more in line with D&D (the new UMD & spellcraft system plus the share spell feature come to mind), i thought that i could quote this excerpt from Tome & Blood, the official sourcebook where the pale master class comes from:

At every second level gained in the pale master class, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (...), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting.

So, any plans about giving pale masters something they should have always had in NWN? I know it can be done, not sure about the amount of work it could involve but perhaps this new spellhooking thingy could make things easier. For the record, i am not playing a pale master or planning on playing one.

[modigliani]

Thanks for the input, everybody. Looks like metamagic will be perfect.

Begins new droning chant

Extend and maximize, extend and maximize, extend and maximize....

[szabot]

Well, don't forget about the downside to metamagic: a spell prepared with metamagic takes up higher spells slots. Thus, by preparing spells that way, you lose spots for higher level spells. Also, by taking those feats, you not only, when you use them, lose higher level spells, but also miss out on other feats. I'm not saying not to take metamagic feats; just keep this in mind.

[modigliani]

Well, don't forget about the downside to metamagic: a spell prepared with metamagic takes up higher spells slots. Thus, by preparing spells that way, you lose spots for higher level spells. Also, by taking those feats, you not only, when you use them, lose higher level spells, but also miss out on other feats. I'm not saying not to take metamagic feats; just keep this in mind.

True indeed. But with a Pale Master 10/ Sorcerer or Bard, you will always have empty higher-level spell slots until you max out the spell level in your primary class. In a sense, if you don't take metamagic feats, you are wasting the higher slots, since you don't learn new spells at PM level up (unlike a wizard, who can learn spells from scrolls as he advances in PM and opens higher level slots). At that point, you can essentially maximize or extend everything, since you're bumping all spells up into vacated slots.

Definitely something to consider, though. Thanks.

[szabot]

Ah, right. I was really thinking of PM/Wizard.

[Zyndro]

I'm not sure how it works in NWN, but in pnp a sorcerer using metamagic would have a penalty that wizards and divine spellcasters don't.

From the player's guide..

Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must do so on the spot. The sorcerer or bard, therefore, must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (...) than a regular spell.

I have no clue if this is true in NWN's version or not, though.

[mortzestus]

For bards or sorcerers, casting a spell with metamagic is a full round action in D&D. Ironic how a sorcerer casting a "quickened" spell needs actually more time.

This is not implemented in NWN, though.

[modigliani]

For bards or sorcerers, casting a spell with metamagic is a full round action in D&D. Ironic how a sorcerer casting a "quickened" spell needs actually more time.

This is not implemented in NWN, though.

Hah! Vunderbah!

[Final Shinryuu]

In PnP, that casting time extension for sorcerers and bards with metamagic only applies to metamagic other than quicken spell.

Obvious, huh?
*sighs* What really gets me about NWN is that you can't put multiple metamagics on the same spell...

My favorite level 8 spell: Quickened, silenced, stilled Lightning Bolt.

*I blink in his general direction, turning him into a charred, smoking husk.*
(the blink isen't needed, it's just to make the spell look cooler)

^_^

[mortzestus]

In PnP, that casting time extension for sorcerers and bards with metamagic only applies to metamagic other than quicken spell.

You sure of that? I haven't seen that rule in the Player's Handbook or Tome & Blood, perhaps it's a 3.5 rule but i'm pretty sure it's not a 3.0 thing.

[dougnoel]

So, any plans about giving pale masters something they should have always had in NWN? I know it can be done, not sure about the amount of work it could involve but perhaps this new spellhooking thingy could make things easier. For the record, i am not playing a pale master or planning on playing one.

I thought that did work properly in NWN, becaase it was causing a coding problem. Either way, I'll look into it and let you know.

In PnP, that casting time extension for sorcerers and bards with metamagic only applies to metamagic other than quicken spell.

You sure of that? I haven't seen that rule in the Player's Handbook or Tome & Blood, perhaps it's a 3.5 rule but i'm pretty sure it's not a 3.0 thing.

I am. If you Quicken a spell it becomes a free action and not 1 action. The extended time for metamagic feats only applies to spells with a casting time of 1 action or longer. Which also means that you can use metamagic feats with say, feather fall and the casting time will not increase.

Neat, huh?

[mortzestus]

Yeah, but the spell only becomes a free action after preparing it with metamagic, so a sorcerer or bard would still to spend a full round action preparing the spell. But anyway, i knew that a reference to this could be found somewhere:

Sorcerers should approach metamagic feats with caution. When you use a metamagic feat, it's a full-round action to cast the spell (...). For a sorcerer, Quicken Spell isn't worth even considering.

EDIT: The only way to get rid of this increase in the spellcasting time is to go for the automatic metamagic feats, a sorcerer or bard with automatic quicken spell can cast his spells as free actions.

Going back on topic, pale masters don't get caster level in NWN, so "fixing" that could be interesting. Taking just game mechanics into account, the class is right now of limited use for a mage beyond level 10 and power wise, no one in his senses would advance just as a pale master after acquiring the class, mixing in more wizard/sorcerer leves is required unless you want to be a useless mage (or you are creating some sort of fighter/pale master, hah). Giving caster level to the pale master would make possible to have characters advancing primarily in that class without giving up too much power along the way.

[Dralix]

Going back on topic, pale masters don't get caster level in NWN, so "fixing" that could be interesting. Taking just game mechanics into account, the class is right now of limited use for a mage beyond level 10 and power wise, no one in his senses would advance just as a pale master after acquiring the class, mixing in more wizard/sorcerer leves is required unless you want to be a useless mage (or you are creating some sort of fighter/pale master, hah).

With a better BAB progression, a melee pale master would be a lot more viable I think. It's kind of odd that the PM description says that you sacrifice spellcasting for a stronger melee presence, but then you get the same BAB as a wizard.

On a related note, the new Tenser's is quite nice.

But all this is coming from someone with no sense. Dralix is wiz10/PM3 and not taking anymore wiz levels.

[dougnoel]

Yeah, but the spell only becomes a free action after preparing it with metamagic, so a sorcerer or bard would still to spend a full round action preparing the spell. But anyway, i knew that a reference to this could be found somewhere:

Sorcerers should approach metamagic feats with caution. When you use a metamagic feat, it's a full-round action to cast the spell (...). For a sorcerer, Quicken Spell isn't worth even considering.

Hmmm...even if you go with that you can prepare it as a full round action, let it off and cast another one that same round. I can see times when that would be useful. Get in a fight, duck behind cover and prepare a spell. Pop back out and fire off two spells in one round, and then hide again.

Personally, I dunno if I'd go with T&B's interpretation. I consider those books supplements - not cannon. But then that's my perogative as a DM. You can play it however you like in your PnP campaign.

On a related note, the new Tenser's is quite nice.

Glad you like it.

With a better BAB progression, a melee pale master would be a lot more viable I think. It's kind of odd that the PM description says that you sacrifice spellcasting for a stronger melee presence, but then you get the same BAB as a wizard.

I made a Palemaster/Monk combo once with 3 levels of necromancer. Good fighter, excellent saves, lots of nice immunities. A level 10 palemaster is a melee powerhouse. Being immune to critical hits is very useful, especially when fighting say weapon masters with devastating criticals. It just requires you to get those 10 levels.

[WrathOG777]

...Going back on topic, pale masters don't get caster level in NWN, so "fixing" that could be interesting. Taking just game mechanics into account, the class is right now of limited use for a mage beyond level 10 and power wise, no one in his senses would advance just as a pale master after acquiring the class, mixing in more wizard/sorcerer leves is required unless you want to be a useless mage (or you are creating some sort of fighter/pale master, hah). Giving caster level to the pale master would make possible to have characters advancing primarily in that class without giving up too much power along the way.

Don't laugh! That is actualy a viable charater concept.

[modigliani]

Bard / Palemaster rulez

Decent BAB, armor prof., empty spell slots for metamagic feats such as silent spell, bardsong for summons...

But not many people have the stomach to play a bard long enough to go this route. If you absolutely love your character, as I do, then it's a real treat.