Wemic bug about AB

ave · Post by **ave** » Wed May 26, 2004 5:26 pm

My character sheet shows +12 to attack . Still all my rolls are at +11. Is my character bugged?

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Wed May 26, 2004 5:29 pm

what were you fighting? since a Wemic is a Large creature, there is a penalty against fighting smaller sized creatures.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed May 26, 2004 5:35 pm

Jordicus wrote:what were you fighting? since a Wemic is a Large creature, there is a penalty against fighting smaller sized creatures.

Strictly speaking I thought there was a bonus to AC for smaller creatures, i.e. if a large creature attacks a smaller creature, the smaller creature gets +1 to AC. Maybe the engine is doing a "trick" and subtracting 1 off the to hit instead of adding 1 to the AC?

But I thought that earlier discussion on this type of problem (ave's other thread) had identified that the AC of his Wemic was decreased when attacked by smaller creatures. So, there isn't some double accounting going on here is there ? Subtracting from larger creatures to-hit AND adding to opponents AC ? Maybe it is just the way the engine displays it - more testing is required I guess, get in a ring somewhere with another player and try it out (maybe try Ferrell boxing gloves?).

ave · Post by **ave** » Wed May 26, 2004 5:42 pm

Rat. Ok i know this is tiny. I ll check it with more monster types as well. But i don't think that the bottom right window is that "smart " to assign a different number visible by the player at the time you take the attack against something. Same as when hook horrors attack a wemic it doesn't shows the bonuses added to the standard monster's rolls. It just "permits the monster to hit you with a 25 while you have a 27 just to make you wonder. I will test it with something bigger and be back

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Wed May 26, 2004 6:06 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote: Strictly speaking I thought there was a bonus to AC for smaller creatures, i.e. if a large creature attacks a smaller creature, the smaller creature gets +1 to AC. Maybe the engine is doing a "trick" and subtracting 1 off the to hit instead of adding 1 to the AC?

But I thought that earlier discussion on this type of problem (ave's other thread) had identified that the AC of his Wemic was decreased when attacked by smaller creatures. So, there isn't some double accounting going on here is there ? Subtracting from larger creatures to-hit AND adding to opponents AC ? Maybe it is just the way the engine displays it - more testing is required I guess, get in a ring somewhere with another player and try it out (maybe try Ferrell boxing gloves?).

Ok, here's the way I always understood that it is supposed to work, and this is from Star Wars PnP d20, but I assume D&D is the same. Medium-sized creatures, such as half-orcs, humans, dwaves, elves, and half elves, get no size modified AC or attack bonus. That would be +0/+0

Small critters, such as halflings and gnomes, get size modifiers to both AC and attacks. They get +1 AC, +1 attack. This means that they are harder to hit and have an easier time hitting medium-sized or larger creatures, but the bonuses are basically a wash if a halfling is fighting a halfling, for example.

Large critters, like wemics, suffer a -1 penalty to both AC and attacks. They get -1 AC, -1 to attacks. This means it is harder for them to hit, and easier for them to be hit by medium-sized or smaller opponents. These penalties are bascially a wash if a wemic were fighting another wemic, though.

Any of this make sense?

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed May 26, 2004 6:12 pm

Malathyre wrote:Any of this make sense?

Yes and that's how it is supposed to be according to 3e.

A large creature gets a -1 to AC and -1 to attacks.

Now this may never show up, because Bioware didn't think anyone would ever be playing a large or bigger creature offten enough to bother putting that into the character sheet display.

But Ave's character if it has a tottal AB of +12, for level, feats, stats, ect.. Would need to subtract 1 from it, for being a large creature.

Ave, if you do the math what do you come up with?

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed May 26, 2004 7:04 pm

Vanor wrote:Now this may never show up, because Bioware didn't think anyone would ever be playing a large or bigger creature offten enough to bother putting that into the character sheet display.

It could never ever ever show up on the charcter sheet, because the character sheet doesn't know what sized creature (or creatures!) you are fighting.

I play a gnome my AC is X and my to-hit is Y. The character sheet display assumes +0/+0 (using your convention). But in the combat window I see that I am only hit when the attacker beats X+1 and my to-hit roll is Y+1 ... when fighting medium of bigger creatures of course. When fighting same size I see no pluses.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed May 26, 2004 7:59 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:It could never ever ever show up on the charcter sheet, because the character sheet doesn't know what sized creature (or creatures!) you are fighting.

That's not true.

What size you are fighting is illrealivent. All large creatures get a -1 to AC and a -1 to hit, period. A small creature on the other hand gets a +1 to AC and a +1 to hit, period. Again no size comparison counts here.

I would guess that the AC and to hit roll effects of size, simply aren't factored into the character sheet period.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed May 26, 2004 8:08 pm

Vanor wrote:
Dirk Cutlass wrote:It could never ever ever show up on the charcter sheet, because the character sheet doesn't know what sized creature (or creatures!) you are fighting.
That's not true.

What size you are fighting is illrealivent. All large creatures get a -1 to AC and a -1 to hit, period. A small creature on the other hand gets a +1 to AC and a +1 to hit, period. Again no size comparison counts here.

I would guess that the AC and to hit roll effects of size, simply aren't factored into the character sheet period.

Well, I've not got the manual handy - but I'm going to disagree with you. IMHO it is not "large" or "small" it is "larger" or "smaller". I'm pretty sure that my gnome gets no such bonuses against other gnomes, halflings or pixies or whatever. The relative size is meaningless unless you have something to compare it against, which is why it doesn't show on the character sheet.

I'll re-check tonight to prove it .. to myself

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed May 26, 2004 8:10 pm

Vanor is correct, this time...

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed May 26, 2004 8:16 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:I'm pretty sure that my gnome gets no such bonuses against other gnomes, halflings or pixies or whatever.

They still get them, but the effect cancles each other out. A +1 to hit is cancled out by the +1 to AC. Net effect = 0

dougnoel · Post by **dougnoel** » Wed May 26, 2004 8:53 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:Well, I've not got the manual handy - but I'm going to disagree with you. IMHO it is not "large" or "small" it is "larger" or "smaller". I'm pretty sure that my gnome gets no such bonuses against other gnomes, halflings or pixies or whatever. The relative size is meaningless unless you have something to compare it against, which is why it doesn't show on the character sheet.

After reading the other thread ave started, I loaded up the client and took a look at a gnome character. The +1 attack/AC bonus is encompassed into the Small Stature feat. One possible reason for doing this would be to handle polymorphing and wild shape. If a halfling wild shape's into a wolf, he is no longer small sized. It's not a very good reason IMHO, but hey...it's possible.

Otherwise, the +1 bonuses should always be in effect. Like Vanor said, they cancel each other out. The table from the PHB (at least from my memory) is like this:

Size.............AC..Attack
Diminutive...+4...+4
Tiny.............+2...+2
Small...........+1...+1
Medium........0.....0
Large..........-1...-1
Huge...........-2...-2
Gargantuan.-4...-4

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed May 26, 2004 9:01 pm

This isn't a bug. So I moved it to the General Discussion form.

Oh btw, the table posted is corect. It's missing two catagories, but that's not a big deal.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed May 26, 2004 9:53 pm

Ah, they cancel out I see - I guess that makes sense. But in that case the character sheet is wrong (like was said earlier - I agree with that now). The small stature +s are not shown on my character sheet, they are only evident from the combat log. I guess the same is true of larg creatures too.

*bows down humbly to superior knowledge*

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed May 26, 2004 9:59 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:The small stature +s are not shown on my character sheet, they are only evident from the combat log.

That seems to be the case... Which is odd, but it explanes a lot. Including the problem with being hit with an attack roll that is below the listed AC. So not only is it not showing in the character sheet, it's not being shown in the attack rolls, even though it is actually there.

The character sheet might be a simple bug where some feats aren't factored into what is displayed there.

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Wed May 26, 2004 10:07 pm

Well, considering that BAB was a relatively late addition to the character sheet, I'm not surprised size modifiers haven't made it on there yet. Forgetting all magical items and spells, there are really only three things that should contribute to your characters total attack bonus. For melee, that's str, BAB, and size. For ranged, that's dex, BAB, and size. If you've got weapon finesse, substitute dex for str in the melee category, provided you are using a light, finessable weapon. If your character is epic, you can start tossing epic attack bonus in there, too. That's really it. Weapons, feats, spells, and other items really confuse the issue, so the best advice I can give is if you really want to find out what your total attack bonus is, strip your character naked and go kill a rat or something with a plain weapon that you are not focused in.

It might be a bit OOC for some characters to wander around killing rats naked...but not for all.

ave · Post by **ave** » Wed May 26, 2004 10:17 pm

So not a bug. Ok thanks guys! Still this thread is useful as an information about wemics and generally large creatures,attack bonuses, penalties etc..
Thanks that you have occupied (once again) with my problem ! :)

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed May 26, 2004 10:21 pm

ave wrote:So not a bug.

Nope but I sure seemed like one at first. It's good this all came out though, being able to play a large creature is fairly new here... So not many people would of thought about it. I know I hadn't.

Now everyone who's read this knows and can explane it to others who have questions about it.