Hide in Plain Sight

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:12 pm

Well, seeing as this seems to be the main issue a lot of folks are suddenly very interested in discussing, I thought it could use its own thread.

The basic question: Is Hide in Plain Sight (HIPS) overpowered compared to the PnP version enough that it requires change? Then, if it does need changeing, what is a good suggestion that gives those who wish to be shadowdancers an effective ability while discourageing metagaming just to get that ability?
- First, CvC != via reasons. The classes are not and will never be balances for CvC. If you cannot justify your statements useing NPC examples, donot bother.

What has been mentioned is...
- compareing HIPS to the PnP version and how that works.

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/PrestigeClasses.rtf wrote:Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

- its effectiveness relative to other abilitys and spells to determine the proper lvl of the ability in its current form on Avlis.
is it as good as an unlimited supply of escape spells... Sanctuary(1), invisability(2), imp invis(4), Etherealness(6), or Timestop(9)

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:32 am

not sure what you are trying to accomplish here.

the feat Hide in Plain Sight is hardcoded into the engine, so there is no script or anything that can be modified about it.

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:12 pm

Often observed monster kill routine using HIPS (logged as DM):

Tag monster with arrow, fade, reposition, tag it again, fade, reposition.... abuses the engine a lot, IMHO.

Monster killing without risk.

TheElvenKing · Post by **TheElvenKing** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:15 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:Often observed monster kill routine using HIPS (logged as DM):

Tag monster with arrow, fade, reposition, tag it again, fade, reposition.... abuses the engine a lot, IMHO.

Monster killing without risk.

How is repositioning abusing anything? That is called good tactics; the person is actually making a point to move in order to get a flanking shot.

It's the people who have the attack button and therefore the disengage function quickslotted right beside the hide key who know how to abuse the HiPS feature. Hit F2, fade, sneak attack, hit F1, disengage, hit F2, fade, sneak attack, hit F1, disengage, etc. This method is a bit slow, but will get you infinite sneak attacks if spammed correctly and you don't have to move at all. This is called bad tactics, and cheesing the ability.

There is a difference between the two.

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:24 pm

It is the same method. You shoot, then break the monsters AI routine by HIPS, then move away, catch it again flatfooted.

Each time you HIPS, the monsters stop doing anything (spellcasting, ruunnning, name it) and just stand around stupid, untill hit by next arrow. Then they charge for a second, untill HIPS gets used again.

This is an exploit of the AI routine and engine limitation, not good tactics.

For a refference to similar tactics, see the Darkness + Badger exploit discussion. Darkness makes monsters stop cold, too, and allows a mage to fireball the darkness area for XP without any risk to himself.

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:00 pm

You need to move away or stop attack before you HIPS, and then roll agaisnt tumble and enemies sometimes get AoO. HIPS dont work else, at least not the way i use it.

Each time you HIPS, the monsters stop doing anything (spellcasting, ruunnning, name it) and just stand around stupid, untill hit by next arrow. Then they charge for a second, untill HIPS gets used again.

We used this a bit, and the experience is still that the enemies run agasint they place where you stood last time. Tested this in Ferrell Orc caves against teh high Shamans and veterans. They run up on you, but cannot spot you because the high hide. But they dont just stands looking stupid all times. The infiltraors most likely had higher listen, and was able to beat and attack both me and the other shadowdancer a few times when we had an event there.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:11 pm

*makes note to increase Spot/Listen on Orcs...*

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:26 pm

We had long ago a resuce misison here, the cleric that was left deep inside here, forgot she had greater sanctuary... Meanwhile we tried get in here, a few of us died a couple of times, and suddenly this female cleric comes walking like she did when she shopped. Misty we miss you

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:42 pm

I think it is a little more complex than what you all mention. Speaking from experience I will tell you how my characters HIPS works.

Typical Solo Melee combat with baddie using the F1F2 hit and fade tactics.
1. Enter stealth mode, move into area and take first round of attacks on baddie.

2. Creature sees you after first attack and targets you.

3. F1F2 combo, creature still targeting you but harder to hit, and get sneak attack bonus (similar to using invisbility)

4. repeat F1F2 combo until either you or monster is dead. Trust me, both can happen quickly.

Benifits: you get sneak attack while only fighting every other round. If you only use your first attack (you can get up to two sneak attacks the first round if dual weapon) you have possibility of not being seen for a couple rounds but is difficult.

Problems: They will continue to attack you due to AI even if you are just using it to eascape. You can not quaff potion while in stealth mode but you can use heal kit I believe.

I have not tried with ranged but will soon.

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:44 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention. The differance between PnP and NWN in the 10 foot shadow thing is that the game engine doesn't allow for much complexity. There are both benifits and negatives to this but I think they tried to keep spirit up. This has been discussed in other threads but I do not know if they are public or not.

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:17 pm

Jordicus wrote:*makes note to increase Spot/Listen on Orcs...*

Heh, I snuck to the end of that place...

Figured, oh hell I still have all my offensive spells.

Timestop, Wail Wail Wail

WTF, 1 orc dies.

Then I was in ALL KINDS of shit. Died in a round.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:21 pm

Emprod wrote:Heh, I snuck to the end of that place...

Figured, oh hell I still have all my offensive spells.

Timestop, Wail Wail Wail

WTF, 1 orc dies.

Then I was in ALL KINDS of shit. Died in a round.

LOL.. thanks.. that made my day..

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:03 pm

One thing to consider...

In PnP, in a dark cave with lots of shadows, a shadowdancer could do the exact same thing people using the "HiPS/sneak rinse wash repeat" tactic are doing here on Avlis.

It only becomes "abusing the game engine" when people use the tactic against monsters that *should* be able to defeat the HiPS ability. Casting the light cantrip on a shadowdancer would cause all shadows within 20 feet to dissapear, negating HiPS. Any spellcaster with the light cantrip memorized, and any creature at all with a magic item that can cast the light cantrip shouldn't have to worry about HiPS being used repeatedly on them.

So a shadowdancer/rogue using the hips/sneak combo against any sort of spellcaster is absolutely abusing the game engine. Using the ability against orc warriors in a dark cave and your just taking advantage of a class ability your character has. This is true so long as the PnP rules are being used to make an argument for changing HiPS...

If you gave stealthed characters with any sort of light source emanating directly from their person a -60 to hide and a -60 to move silent (to effectively destroy their ability to use stealth), you'd achieve a much more balanced HiPS ability.

The only problem would be figuring out how to get NPC's to recognize a character is a shadowdancer and once they've done this, to use their light spells on said shadowdancer. Don't know if it's possible, but that would take care of the issue, anyway.

The problem with raising spot/listen on monsters is that it screws characters not based 100% around stealth. The druid with one with the land and camoflauge spells can't sneak past anything, the mage with cross class skill points in stealth and decent dexterity can't sneak, etc. All raising spot and listen on NPC's will do is widen the gap between players who don't spend all day looking for "uber" items that boost hide/move silent, and those who do. Besides, shouldn't Rogues be able to sneak past monsters?

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:22 pm

sly_1 wrote:It only becomes "abusing the game engine" when people use the tactic against monsters that *should* be able to defeat the HiPS ability.

How does a PC know if a NPC should be able to see them? The problem as I understand it, is when engaging HiPS, the spot/search check isn't made right away.

This isn't anything we can change I don't believe. So if you want to avoid even the apperance of abusing the eng, don't attack again for a few sec's after using HiPS, that way the NPC has a chance to make a spot check.

That is however just a sugestion, and nothing else.

Casting the light cantrip on a shadowdancer would cause all shadows within 20 feet to dissapear, negating HiPS.

Wrong. First off HiPS is a supernatural ablity, that allows someone to hide even if they are seen. So making all the shadows dissapear would not negate HiPS. Also the light cantrip would not make all shadows dissapear, it would in fact actually create new shadows.

It's imporant to note, HiPS does not increase in anyway someone's ablity to hide. All it does is allow them to enter stealth mode, even if they're seen. It is an instant effect, and once triggered, a SD is treated like every other stealthed PC in the game.

If you gave stealthed characters with any sort of light source emanating directly from their person a -60 to hide and a -60 to move silent (to effectively destroy their ability to use stealth), you'd achieve a much more balanced HiPS ability.

This would effect all stealthed PC's period, and would do nothing at all to HiPS. Also there is already a penility for having a light source active to the hide skill, which is same as it is in PnP I believe.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:29 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:Each time you HIPS, the monsters stop doing anything (spellcasting, ruunnning, name it) and just stand around stupid, untill hit by next arrow. Then they charge for a second, untill HIPS gets used again.

So, if someone vanishes before your very eyes, you'd not stop what your doing and wonder wtf just happened?

For a refference to similar tactics, see the Darkness + Badger exploit discussion.

The darkness + badger thing is completely different. The use of a badger allowed a mage to artifically lower their avg level, and gain a great deal more exp's then they should of. The explote was in how many exp's you could gain, not in the fact that darkness stoped a NPC from reacting.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:43 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:It is the same method. You shoot, then break the monsters AI routine by HIPS, then move away, catch it again flatfooted.
Each time you HIPS, the monsters stop doing anything (spellcasting, ruunnning, name it) and just stand around stupid, untill hit by next arrow. Then they charge for a second, untill HIPS gets used again.
This is an exploit of the AI routine and engine limitation, not good tactics.
For a refference to similar tactics, see the Darkness + Badger exploit discussion. Darkness makes monsters stop cold, too, and allows a mage to fireball the darkness area for XP without any risk to himself.

Star, It doesn?t really work this way. In my experience, using it over the last several months, you never break the monster?s AI routine by using HiPS. What typically happens is this following:

1. You enter battle without anybody seeing you;
2. You attack a creature and get a sneak attack;
3. You hit HiPS;
4. The monster continues to attack you even though you are now hidden;
5. The next round you get to attack again.
6. You hit HiPS;
7. The monster continues to attack you.

It?s a well known bug that monsters that couldn?t see you before, will continue to attack and follow you after you attack them once. This is true even if you move around?even if you leave the area? even if you walk several zones and leave the dungeon.

In some respects it?s a nice balance, and decreases the overall effectiveness of the ability.

Oh....and I've never noticed any sort of engine slow down because of this tactic. I can't see it really being any greater "strain" on the engine than the people who spam spells or knockdown, or called shot -which we've lived with since the beggining. Never noticed any sort of change between when I use it and dont.

Thanks,

Bear

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:46 pm

So, if someone vanishes before your very eyes, you'd not stop what your doing and wonder wtf just happened?

No, and that is part of why I even made a comment in the first place.
It happens so often these days I don't even blink...

marauder · Post by **marauder** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:51 pm

Vanor I think he was talking about the PnP rules for HiPS. It requires a shadow within 10 ft if Wrath's post is correct. Light would remove shadows. However I am not sure if that would work fully...it could not possibly remove ALL shadows.

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:56 pm

Light wouldn't remove all shadows.

Light radiates from the target. Anything within the radius of light casts a shadow because of the light spell. If target is standing next to a boulder, a tree, a bunch of grass, shadows are created on the opposite side of the object (the side opposite the light source). Hence the light spell would create shadows.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:02 pm

marauder wrote:Vanor I think he was talking about the PnP rules for HiPS. It requires a shadow within 10 ft if Wrath's post is correct.

Yep

It does require a shadow with in 10 ft of the SD, in order for them to use HiPS.

However it does not say anything else. It makes no statement about entering said shadow, the size of the shadow, how dark the shadow must be, ect...

The rules only state, a shadow with in 10 feet.

Casting light on a SD would in fact create more shadows, as everything near them would now cast shadows, in 360 deg's....

Cath · Post by **Cath** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:06 pm

It makes no statement about entering said shadow, the size of the shadow, how dark the shadow must be, ect...

Yes, but to assume you can hide in said shadow without moving into it is really bordering on the ridiculous.
And when that shadowdancer steps into that shadow and bring that lightspell with them I can assure you there isn't much shadow left as the light is centered right where the SD is trying to hide.

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:09 pm

But there's nothing about having to "hide in said shadow".

There only has to be a shadow within 10 ft.

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:10 pm

Emprod wrote:
Jordicus wrote:*makes note to increase Spot/Listen on Orcs...*

Heh, I snuck to the end of that place...

Figured, oh hell I still have all my offensive spells.

Timestop, Wail Wail Wail

WTF, 1 orc dies.

Then I was in ALL KINDS of shit. Died in a round.

Emp: You have to keep backup timestops ready or at the very least greater sanctuary...n00b

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:13 pm

So essentially what we are saying here is that shadowdancers can hide in the dark, and they can hide just as easily in the light, even if you cast light on them, or right next to them.

In what situation would they NOT be able to hide in shadows? Given everything I've read so far, it seems like there is absolutely no feasible scenario where the shadowdancer would not be able to hide. If there are light and there are objects around, including blades of grass apparently, shadows will be cast.

*scratches his head*

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:14 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:So essentially what we are saying here is that shadowdancers can hide in the dark, and they can hide just as easily in the light, even if you cast light on them, or right next to them.

Not quite right. They get the standard penalty for trying to hide in a well lit area. So they can't hide just as easily in the light