Healing Domain

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:42 am

I just want to ask what clerics with the healing domain generally get for their healing spells.

my cure serious wounds spells have healed around 30-45
cure crits have healed 45-60

aren't these supposed to be empowered? are clerics without the healing domain generally getting the same numbers? I know things were a bit screwy before 1.61 because my healing spells always healed the same amount. 52 for CSW and 72 for CCW. But now it doesn't seem like my healing spells are being empowered.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:16 am

That seems right. Normally a level 20 cleric with cure critical wounds only heals about 40 hp per spell AFAIK. You certainly aren't getting ripped off.

NWDuneAuron · Post by **NWDuneAuron** » Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:14 pm

From my experience, the Empowerment for Healing Domain doenst apply when casting them on yourself ?

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:54 am

the heals just seem a bit small, especially since they should be empowered.

They should be empowered every time i cast them, no matter who or what i cast them on.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:56 am

Hmmm....

cure spell /normal /norm. max /empowered /emp. max

light /d8+5 /13 /(d8x1.5+7) /19
moderate /2d8+10 /26 /(2d8x1.5+15) /39
serious /3d8+15 /39 /(3d8x1.5+22) /58
critical /4d8+20 /52 /(4d8x1.5+30) /78

not sure if cure critical gets a +20 max off the top of my head...and now that the setting is such they are rolled well then the average numbers are...not sure how you get 52 and 72...there is 1 or 4 more pts coming from somewhere that I can't follow 6x8=48+20=68...hmmm 48+16+8=72 so in this case the level must be muliplied by x1.5...ok here is where I am not sure...does the empowered multiple the level bonus or not? If it does then these numbers I quote as max and averge are correct, if not they are high.

cure spell /avg norm /avg emp

light /9 /13
moderate /19 /28
serious /23 /41
critical /38 /57

So if your cures are doing that sort of healing rate and it looks like they are then they are empowered.

Avg is calculated assuming 4 or 5 will show up on the d8 with the 4 more common then the 5 (so 3d8 will averge at 2x4+5 or 13)...multiplying by 1.5 drops the odd fraction IIRC so 13x1.5 = 19.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:15 pm

wow thanks Spell, yer a gem.

I'll have a look at these in-game and see how things go.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:09 pm

I am pretty sure that empowered is not supposed to multiply constants, only the random part.

Thus 4d8+20 -> 4d8*1.5+20 = 6d8+20. Not (4d8+20)*1.5 = 6d8+30

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:17 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:I am pretty sure that empowered is not supposed to multiply constants, only the random part.

I'm pretty sure your right. Here's what the SRD says...

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

Which seems to say that only random parts get increased.

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:29 pm

Not really, it's a matter of iterpretation:

if my damage is a variable of 6-13, it gets multiplied if empowered. It doesn't matter whether that's composed of 1d8+5 or any other type. The variable is damage dealt, or ability boost, or hp healed, etc, not only the die-type.

It's the fine difference between

"all variable, numeric effects"

and

" the variable part in the equasion of all numerical effects"

The emphasis is on the effect that is multiplied, not only the variable part OF the effect.

In the PHB it's even demonstrated that this is the way to interpret it: the magic missile is given as an example, and it says that first 1d4+1 is thrown, then the result multiplied by 1.5, not 1d4 multiplied by 1.5 then +1.

By the way, empowered is screwed on some spells: my empowered Firestorms are supposed to deal 30d6, but i have serious doubts they even deal 20d6...i've dealt like 8 divine damage to a creature, which seems a bit low, and never more then 2x50, where a true 30d6 would deal an AVERAGE of 2x52.5...

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:41 pm

well to a point it's illrealivent what the PHB says... Depending on how NWN works. Basic functions like math can't be altered I don't think.

So it's a question of how NWN works. If NWN works by finding a random number between X and Y, then empowered should cover the constants.

So 4d8+20=(24-52)*1.5 is 36-78. However if it's (4-32*1.5)+20 then it's 26-68.

There's also the question of how D&D is meant to work. If the 1.5 is supposed to be applied to the constants or not. Considering they aren't really constatants, but varable depending on the lvl of the caster... They could very well be part of it.

But no matter how it is supposed to work, I'm not sure this is something we can change.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:46 pm

i only brought this up to see what other people who have clerics with the healing domain are getting with their heal spells. To see if they're getting about the same healing effectiveness that i am compared to clerics without the healing domain.

also, i think the empower feat takes any modifiers into account as well.

So a heal would be (4D8+20)*1.5. But that's just how i interpret the feat's description.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:37 pm

Well the best way is to cast cure crit, or some other spell... Actually cure light would be best and see what kind of results you get.

Cure light 1d8+1/lvl so in your case 1d8+5

That is either (1-8*1.5) = (1-13)+5 = 6-18 hp or 6-13*1.5 = 9-19 hp, or if it's not working at all, you'd get 6-13 hp

I believe most cure spells cast outside of combat heals max everytime. Or at least healing potions do. So either you'd get 17 if empowered without counting the lvl bonus, 18 if it does, or 12 if it's not working at all.

If you don't get max each time, the avg's would be...

non-empowered = 10, empowered without counting the lvl bonus = 12 and empowered with counting the lvl bonus = 14.

So cast enough cure lights and you should get an idea what is really going on.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:45 pm

KinX said in the first post what he was getting in the past when the setting was such that you alway got the max hps the trouble is 52 is too low but 72 is bang on for (4d8+16)*1.5.

How he would get 52 is beyond me since neither method gives that.

(3d8+15)*1.5=39*1.5=58

(3d8*1.5+15)=24*1.5+15=36+15=51

The key point is that his cures are empowered as you can tell by looking at the damage he was curing since it exceeds what the spell could otherwise give.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:20 pm

ok, ran a few tests. Cast each of the three cure spells 7 times and got these results. NB: i did these in Avlis, but will also do them in single player to see if there's any difference.

CLW: 15 10 16 12 19 18 12 AVG: 14.5
CSW: 45 37 45 40 45 48 43 AVG: 43.28
CCW: 43 58 51 52 49 52 43 AVG: 49.7

Kharak's a lev 16 cleric. It doesn't look like CCW is that much better than CSW. In some cases, CSW healed more.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:28 pm

KinX wrote:CLW: 19

Should mean that empower includes the lvl bonus. Otherwise you couldn't get a 19... Unless my math is bad.

Kharak's a lev 16 cleric. It doesn't look like CCW is that much better than CSW. In some cases, CSW healed more.

Well you're looking at a extra 1-8 points for cure crit, so it's not that unlikely that it could happen. The advantage of cure crit, is it has a higher max lvl bonus then cure serious.

Cure Serrious 3d8 + 1/lvl max of 15
Cure Critical 4d8 + 1/lvl max of 20

So your PC would get on avg 5 more points out of cure crit then cure serrious.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:36 pm

3d8+15 is not that much different than 4d8+16

(1d8+5)x1.5 is 9-19 ~14
(3d8+15)x1.5 is 27-58 ~42
(4d8+16)x1.5 is 30-72 ~51

Your data agrees with the multiplying result equation.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:36 pm

Actually, as he's only level 16, CCW only gives him +1 more.

Thus, the difference is 1.5*(4.5+1)= 8.25

His is a bit low on average, but that is because it is only a small sample. Averages:

CLW: 1.5(4.5+5)=14.25
CMW: 1.5(9+10)=28.5
CSW: 1.5(13.5+15)=42.75
CCW: 1.5(18+16)=51

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:28 am

ok, that explains a few things and everything's clearer now. I think i was assuming a few too many things as well.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:05 am

Titanium Dragon wrote:Actually, as he's only level 16, CCW only gives him +1 more.

The 5 I mentioned included the extra d8

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:32 am

What really makes this interesting to me is that it makes a lot of spells actually better empowered than maximized.

Examples (all at level 20):

(4th level)Empowered Cat's Grace: +3 Dex, +4 Dex, +6 Dex, or +7 Dex (average: +5 Dex)
(5th level)Maximized Cat's Grace: +5 Dex

(5th level)Empowered Negative energy burst: 31,33,34,36,37,39 damage (average: 35 Damage)
(6th level)Maximized Negative Energy Burst: 26 Damage

Ect.

Very interesting indeed.
1 3 4 6 7 9 10 12 13 15
In essence, it changes the average rolls as follows:

d4 - Normal: 2.5 Empowered: 3.5 Maximized: 4
d4+1 - Normal: 3.5 Empowered: 5 Maximized: 5
d6 - Normal: 3.5 Empowered: 5 Maximized: 6
d8 - Normal: 4.5 Empowered: 6.5 Maximized: 8
d10 - Normal: 5.5 Empowered: 8 Maximized: 10

Basically, it is more beneficial to be Empowered when you have a large bonus per die - a +20 bonus becomes a +30 bonus (an overall gain of +10), which can make up for the tiny bit less the die gets. A +1 bonus per die ups the empowered spell's average number rolled by 1.5, while upping the max number rolled for a maximized spell by only 1.

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:48 pm

This is sort of a related question, but for healing spells, are they random in combat and give the max out of combat, or are they always random? I know that Vanor said earlier in this thread that he thought they give the max out of combat, but I was hoping for more confirmation of this...especially since I don't seem to be getting the max in out of combat situations (in Avlis). Just curious, thanks!

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:00 pm

Malathyre wrote:This is sort of a related question, but for healing spells, are they random in combat and give the max out of combat, or are they always random? I know that Vanor said earlier in this thread that he thought they give the max out of combat, but I was hoping for more confirmation of this...especially since I don't seem to be getting the max in out of combat situations (in Avlis). Just curious, thanks!

I think it's related to the current Difficulty slider setting of the server, and sometimes it gets jogged out of the "Die screaming with sharp things in your head" slot sometimes on a server reset.. don't know if this is still a problem..

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:57 pm

Malathyre wrote:This is sort of a related question, but for healing spells, are they random in combat and give the max out of combat, or are they always random? I know that Vanor said earlier in this thread that he thought they give the max out of combat, but I was hoping for more confirmation of this...especially since I don't seem to be getting the max in out of combat situations (in Avlis). Just curious, thanks!

when i was testing the healing spells, i had a buxom sword wielding elf in a battle-bikini aiding me by giving me some wounds to heal. When i did cast the healing spells, it was out of combat, so no, i don't think they ever max heal out of combat.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:00 pm

it is healing kits that are max outside of combat. Because a skill used out of combat gets to take 20.

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:38 pm

Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I appreciate it. Out of curiousity, which do you generally prefer to use, if you can use either, healing kits or healing spells? Or is it not even fair to compare the two? Just curious what people's opinions are.