Concerning Assassin's death attack

[Liartes]

The DC for a level 10 assassin's death attack will peak at about 20 - 23 for most characters. How feasible is this against other high level characters, or creatures? Will it be basically useless?

I don't have SoU yet, so anyone who's tested this kind of thing out throw some info at me.

Also, how do you use the ability? Is it automatic on a sneak attack? Thanks!

[ave]

Well, it will be around as dangerous as are the DROWN attacks of the water elementals in the slavers caves in the wilderness..........
BRRRR !!!!! I AM AFRAID TO GO THERE ALONE!!!!

[Glocknal]

I played through the SP campaign as an assassin and I found the death attack utterly useless. For one the death attack DC is so low that even mages and non-fort save classes can easily make the save more than half the time. Secondly it doesnt work once combat has started..i.e. the combat music has started. If you have four attacks your first flurry will give you two death attack oppurtunity in most cases, but it really isnt that effective. In short I found the assassin a weak version of the rogue, but the improved invisilblity ablity at 9th level isnt that bad.



Glok

[Liartes]

Just as I suspected. Feck.

[Lilith]

Is this the same as the Backstab only it does a paralyse if successful?

I thought that Skill was quite a neat idea.

[Glocknal]

the death attack isny like the sneak attack in where it can be used if your flanking your opponent. You must hit them before the combat mode begins, meaning you have only one oppurtunity to paralyze them with your ridiculously low DC death attack.




Glok

[Hylia]

There's 2 things to keep in mind here, though:

(a) You're essentially only forfeiting the rogue's bonus feats and some skill points (I believe) when you take assassin levels, and you gain the death attack, spells, poison save, and reflex save bonuses.

(b) Yes, the dc is rediculously low, but I've always considered assassins more as a RP-oriented killer than someone who can wade through a dungeon death-attacking everything that stands in his way. The class features make a character ideal for infiltrating and killing (just what you'd imagine an assassin doing) rather than hack'n'slash. In PnP, I would always consider the RP of the assassination attempt more than the actual saving throw, so if you're attempting it with a DM watching, who knows how well it could work...

[Glocknal]

I agree with you Hyila, but by that same token what your talking about isnt what Bioware implemented with the Assassin class. Its really a half-assed attempt to make it a "cool" class. Whats with the spell ablities? Why the fek can they use improved invis? Frankly any class can be a assassin, thats why they did away with the class in 2nd edtion D@D.


Glok

[FunkOdyssey]

Yes, there are much better ways to kill someone. The 20th level mage is really the ultimate, but I did make this very interesting cleric/rogue assassin that used haste and harm along with max'ed Hide and MS to devastating effect. I decided not to continue with it though because it was pretty cheesy.

[WrathOG777]

Some historical assasins were religous fanatics. I think that the cleric/rogue assasin makes a whole lot of roleplaying sence. Now with this assasin class cleric/rogue/assasin would make sence too.

[FunkOdyssey]

I meant it was cheesy in the sense that people would complain when I started killing people with it. When you can cast two spells a round and you sneak up to someone and start off with Harm, you've got yourself a one round recipe of instant death for anyone that isnt immune to necromancy or negative energy.

[Hylia]

I agree with you Hyila, but by that same token what your talking about isnt what Bioware implemented with the Assassin class. Its really a half-assed attempt to make it a "cool" class. Whats with the spell ablities? Why the fek can they use improved invis? Frankly any class can be a assassin, thats why they did away with the class in 2nd edtion D@D.


Glok

Actually, it's a class from the 3rd Ed. DMG as are most of the new prestige classes. Only diff is in 3rd Ed, assassins get to kill or paralyze with the attack (their choice), they can poison their weapons skillfully, and they have a much wider array of spells. --- though I agree. It's not a wonderful implementation of assassin, but at least it gives a rogue character some interesting options.

Besides, they still got use magic device as a class skill... that's all you need to make an insanely powerful assassin in NWN

[Vergilius]

The same holds true for the Arcane Archers?s death arrows. DC of 20 isn?t going to kill most of the bad enemies, probably only kill a small handful of hero characters if you catch them on a bad day, and certainly not any DM built baddie. On the other hand (for the assassin at least), if we are talking about picking off government officials, nobles, or whatever the RP would dictate, then it seems like it has some great RP value.

I figure the DC has to be low anyway, otherwise the word "broken" comes to mind.

On the subject of better or worse classes, the prestige classes released so far work more for concentration of power in a small area at the expense of others. In that sense, an Assassin is built for assassinating (an excellent RP contribution to the world), but you give up the Rogue bonus feats and weaken a few other things.

The same giving up of power in exchange for a concentration could be found in the other classes as well, but since the thread is about the Assassin, I?ll say no more.

[FunkOdyssey]

The only prestige class that is actually powerful is the arcane archer. The shadowdancer is also good to take 4 levels of, so you get the "hide in plain sight" ability without screwing your BAB up. Aside from those specific examples, the prestige classes are purely a vehicle for RP.

[Vergilius]

Aside from those specific examples, the prestige classes are purely a vehicle for RP.

That is what it looks like from what I?ve read so far.

[Emprod]

the death attack isny like the sneak attack in where it can be used if your flanking your opponent. You must hit them before the combat mode begins, meaning you have only one oppurtunity to paralyze them with your ridiculously low DC death attack.




Glok

I played with this some and found this not true...any situation that prompted a sneak prompted a "Sneak attack + Death attack". Knockdown, daze, flanking, all gave that opportunity.

Maybe it was revised with a patch?

[Mothandric]

Basically speaking from experience of playing an assassin on another server, I think it's a worthwhile prestige class. The D6 for sneak attacks stack with those of the rogue (at least one thing that bioware has got right) and the death attack comes in useful, the baddie may make the save once, twice or ten times but on the eleventh you've got them.

As for only having one shot at a sneak attack, in the solo campaigns you only get one shot because you're alone, however, if you're playing a rogue in a group you should always be flanking or at least in a position where the opponent is concentrating their attacks on someone else, otherwise you're not taking advantage of what a rogue is...

all you have is a tank...

a bad tank...

with a limp...

Basically the death attack is worthwhile and playing it through on the other server I was on before Avlis taught me that the paralyzation of the death attack can save lives... or at least hit points...

[Mothandric]

The only prestige class that is actually powerful is the arcane archer. The shadowdancer is also good to take 4 levels of, so you get the "hide in plain sight" ability without screwing your BAB up. Aside from those specific examples, the prestige classes are purely a vehicle for RP.

A vehicle for RP perhaps but all classes have the ability to be effective if played well and their strengths exploited. I agree the Arcane archer does seem to be the most powerful but if you look a little deeper and play the other classes intelligently you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I'm just saying that all classes have their strengths and weaknesses it's up to you to exploit them.

[Sarmanos]

Well I currently have 2 assassin levels with Xaros and death attack is pretty good when it does work it basically means for me that I already have won the fight since every time so far, whatever I was fighting ended up dead after its successful

[Liartes]

the death attack isny like the sneak attack in where it can be used if your flanking your opponent. You must hit them before the combat mode begins, meaning you have only one oppurtunity to paralyze them with your ridiculously low DC death attack.




Glok

I played with this some and found this not true...any situation that prompted a sneak prompted a "Sneak attack + Death attack". Knockdown, daze, flanking, all gave that opportunity.

Maybe it was revised with a patch?

ARGGHHH!!!

[szabot]

the death attack isny like the sneak attack in where it can be used if your flanking your opponent. You must hit them before the combat mode begins, meaning you have only one oppurtunity to paralyze them with your ridiculously low DC death attack.

Glok

I played with this some and found this not true...any situation that prompted a sneak prompted a "Sneak attack + Death attack". Knockdown, daze, flanking, all gave that opportunity.

Maybe it was revised with a patch?

ARGGHHH!!!

I know this is really old...but I couldn't find a more recent post that cleared it up...what's the answer here? Does the death attack only work before combat starts or does it work like the sneak attack?

[Vroshgrak]

it only has the death option the first round. After that its just an extra d6 dmg to sneak attack.

[Spell Singer]

The only prestige class that is actually powerful is the arcane archer. The shadowdancer is also good to take 4 levels of, so you get the "hide in plain sight" ability without screwing your BAB up. Aside from those specific examples, the prestige classes are purely a vehicle for RP.

Ah the champion of torem (Divine Champion) and the Red Dragon Disciple (Dragon Disciple) are so over powered it is plain silly. The RDD adds something like 12 pts to your stats including a wopping 4 or 6 to your strength. The Divine Champion adds massively to your feats if you are a non-fighter, and if you are a fighter you gain most of the paladin's better abilities. If you look at those cheesy from hell builds on the Bioware boards both classes feature prominantly.

I find all the prestige classes but one too good frankly. While I can understand them under the 2nd Edition rules, I find there is no need for them under the 3rd. You can build a character as you wish with feats so there seems no point in the whole prestige class concept. And the tendancy is to go overboard with them. Frankly the only one that seems balanced is the Harper Scout...and that is the only prestige class I assume no one ever bothers to take.

It may be that I am just an old stick in the mud but I have yet to see a prestige class that doesn't make me wonder what the author was thinking about. They remind me of going into the gaming club at the UofA and being told that they had "modified" the character classes a bit (this is back when the game was called AD&D) indeed they had...each class now had special ability A starting at 1st level and seemed to gain one at each level.

As for the death ability...a DC in the 20's is not bad realistically. A low fort save charcter class has only a +6 at 20th level. Doubling that to a +12 you are still by no means guarrenteed to make that save. You have to balance that with the DC of a spell...bard with 20 charisma and greater spell focus enchantment casting confusion will only have a save DC of 22 for example. And I can speak from experience that I have been very sucessful with that spell at that level of DC.

Even a DM build mage-rogue-bard or any other class with Fort as unfavored should have difficulty with that level of save. At 20th level you have only a base of +6. To increase it requires the use of a lot of magic.

Also it not unreasonable this is a one shot thing only. Realistically you could not "assasinate" someone once combat begins. Though a good rogue might still be able to kill just from sneak attack damage. It represents something like garroting someone or a quick killing stab or what-have-you. When they work they work well...when they don't they don't.

[mortzestus]

The only prestige class that is actually powerful is the arcane archer. The shadowdancer is also good to take 4 levels of, so you get the "hide in plain sight" ability without screwing your BAB up. Aside from those specific examples, the prestige classes are purely a vehicle for RP.

Ah the champion of torem (Divine Champion) and the Red Dragon Disciple (Dragon Disciple) are so over powered it is plain silly. The RDD adds something like 12 pts to your stats including a wopping 4 or 6 to your strength. The Divine Champion adds massively to your feats if you are a non-fighter, and if you are a fighter you gain most of the paladin's better abilities. If you look at those cheesy from hell builds on the Bioware boards both classes feature prominantly.

Well, when Funk posted that neither champion of Torm nor red dragon disciple were available since HotU hadn't been released yet. Back then all was about blackguards, arcane archers, assassins and shadowdancers (and harper scouts, hah). Time has proven that blackguards and assassins aren't "powerful" classes. A blackguard is just a joke compared to a paladin and about assassins, since you are speaking about the death attack in terms of CvC i might add that a simple spell like protection from evil renders you completely immune to the paralysis effect caused by death attack. There you go, the main feature of a class completely negated by a level 1 spell that everybody and his mother can cast. I just don't have words, it's so lame that it's not even funny. Compare that to HiPS at level 1.

Also, almost nobody will have a fortitude of 6 at level 20. Those classes have just too few hit points and many will try to get a decent CON score, not to mention that most people will try to wear some gear with bonuses to saves. Besides, i am not sure about this but chances are that the spellcraft bonus to saves is applied against death attack and that would be another +4/+6 at level 20 (depending on INT score).

[fyrmin]

Also, almost nobody will have a fortitude of 6 at level 20.

*cries*