The Shadowdancer Epidemic

[Vanor]

Seems to me that the real issue here is that the HiPS feat is available without having to invest anything into the class.

This I agree with... SD's are very front loaded classes, kinda like rangers.

As Funk has pointed out, are people RPing the class they are taking before they take it ?

You will never know or be able to answer that. So it is in effect a moot issue. You can't know what someone else is RP'ing or isn't.

So it once more becomes a question of if people are taking SD for no other reason then HiPS or not.

[Malathyre]

This is not the position of the Team, but it comes from me as a player and DM, so it makes it Sveg's opinion.

I agree with Funk on this. There IS an epidemic.

There are quite a few SDs out there. I truly doubt that this number would be that high if True Seeing was not handled as it is right now.

I do not agree on Funk on the opinion concerning the easy way the PrC is gained as this is what we (the Team) plan to do with ALL PrCs. Unfortunately, although it IS the best option, we cannot have DM intervention to authorize the acquisition of PrCs. The numbers of the players and the DMs forbid this.

But I realy believe that it is quite true that the HIPS (heh, I am actually learning all those abreviations as time goes by...) combined with the way we treat True Seeing in Avlis has generated many SDs. It is a formidable combination that cannot be easily countered.

If I had a rogue character at this point I would definitely go for SD. Hmm..I think that if I had a spare class in any character I had I would go for SD.

I TOTALLY agree with you. In matter of personal opinion as well.

There is an overflow of SD's. Especially only ONE level of SD's.

If this is the team's opinion I hope that they will decide to take the time to talk to folks that have taken the Shadowdancer class and find out why the characters in question have taken it. Lots of folks have probably worked hard at developing good IC reasons to take the class, and passing judgment on them without knowing what is going on with their specific case is really not fair to them. I don't like the choice of wording in this thread...an epidemic? Why is it an epidemic for folks to look at ways of improving/developing their characters? Why is it an epidemic if there are a bunch of SD's on the world? Ranger/rogue/monk/whatever SD's ought to be pretty different from one another in terms of what they can do in and out of combat.

Why do we all have to sit around here judging other people's characters? Who gets to say what is and what is not cheese, especially if you don't know the character in question? I don't think that there is any team member or player that can claim to have been rping with every shadowdancer out there, so I don't think it is fair to make global statements about all of them without some way of backing it up. The paladin class is front end loaded, too, and no one really complains about that. Is HiPS really that upsetting to everyone? Does it really affect your day to day play on Avlis that much, or are we just upset because a lot of people wish to play stealth based characters? I dunno, I prefer rogues without as many sneak attack damage dice, rangers without improved two weapon fighting for as long as possible, and monks without any of their wacky level 10 plus benefits in favor of them being able to hide and run away from me if necessary for them. There are trade-offs here to taking the PrC. Maybe none of them are important, though, maybe it's just important that people get to use HiPS, and folks find that upsetting. Before you cry "NERF IT!", though, try thinking about it from the other perspective, too. Putting the PrC as available in game and then telling some folks they have it inappropriately and other folks that it's ok for them to have it really isn't fair.

[Fifty]

*shrug* i don't rate the class.. beyond Hips at least anyway and i'm damned if i'm going to take only 1-3 level's or SD no way.. 10 at least.. if i take an SD level i'm going to "be" an sd not a rogue with the ability to melt into shadows

D8 HP? 6+int mod skill points? Don't rate the class? Are you mad man?

[WrathOG777]

only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?

who says we haven't?

What about the casters that use still and quickened spells in combat? That should not stop them from useing melee abilities like expertice.

Expertise doesn't cancel when you cast a spell.

That's the bug. But it's a different discussion.

Don't hijack, you bastard!!!

I dissagree, I think it should not cancel, thus is not bugged. I think it is a feat that is a combat investment that should be useable by those that make that choice. Even those that think it should cancel should agree that still and quickened spells should be useable while in melee, thus avoiding said cancellation.

[choraldances]

Again, those are MY opinion.

But if your character is dedicated to be a SD, why would you only take one level of SD ICly?

And if your character is NOT dedicated to be a SD, why would you take it ICly?

And if your character decide to take it and then said, well, I don't like that anymore, so I'm not training myself towards being a SD, then, why should you retain the skill?

For Paladins, you have to be LG. AND, the fact that there's an intrinsic cheesing/frowning on Other Class X / Pal 1, just as Other Class X / Monk 1. would have.

Those are just my opinions, and not the opinions of the team.

[Fifty]

My opinion on this is not specific to shadowdancer at all.

Any of these probably need some looking at if they prove true.
- I think any PrC that is picked up for the abilities instead of the RP is bad.
- I think any PrC is overused if its number is even 1/5th of the folks who have all the prereqs.

So how to you get to decide which 1/5 get to take the PrC?

- I think the holywarriors should have precidence in implementation over the others. These have been mentioned as needing to be part of avlis since far before a NWN PrC option existed.
- Same goes for the white necromancer, but I think that is still a pipe dream.

Agree 100%

- I also think that all PrCs should require just as much IC dedication and work as holywarriors. Meaning PrCs require a guild membership, approval by that guild to become one, quests from that guild to prove worthyness, then only can the automated quest even be taken.

Utterly against this. Why should it be the case that a guild controls a PrC? What if someone wants a PrC but does not want to join that guild? Why restrict it to the guild? It makes the guild unfairly powerful. Why would there be an IC erason for each PrC to be covered by a particular guild? I can imagine it being done for some, for example, Shadowdancers having to commune with a spirit god that only the guild can summon (No idea what the quest is really), bt for all of them? And what about other CoPaP worlds? You'll just see players go there to level.

[terryrayc]

Hum, I like the SD class and as long as players are taking it IC rping reasons that is fine. What bothers me is seeing a ton of players with only 1 level in SD. They take that one level for the hips then move back to taking their normal class. That is just wrong.....that right there, if you ask me, kills all IC and RP reasons. If you are going to take the path of SD then take it. If all you are doing is taking 1 level for the skill then moving on...you just metagamed.

[Vanor]

If this is the team's opinion I hope that they will decide to take the time to talk to folks that have taken the Shadowdancer class and find out why the characters in question have taken it.

Don't wory, we're not going to go on a which hunt of SD's

[keikobad]

only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?

who says we haven't?

What about the casters that use still and quickened spells in combat? That should not stop them from useing melee abilities like expertice.

Expertise doesn't cancel when you cast a spell.

That's the bug. But it's a different discussion.

Don't hijack, you bastard!!!

I dissagree, I think it should not cancel, thus is not bugged. I think it is a feat that is a combat investment that should be useable by those that make that choice. Even those that think it should cancel should agree that still and quickened spells should be useable while in melee, thus avoiding said cancellation.

<hijack>
Even if its quickened, while you're casting you're not defending, period. You interrupt your defensive fighting even for a second while you cast your spell, you gave your opponent a hole to strike in.
</hijack>

Back to our regular programming, it was just explained to me that HiPS allows you to hide for a few seconds no matter what the opponent's Spot/Listen score, letting the SD get in a few sneaks and disappear again. Some claim it's impossible to even target the Shadowdancing HiPS with targetted spells because of this. I don't know about that, but I can see why it's attractive to folks without uber gear now.

Still, hiding for 5 seconds isn't the same as permanently dissapearing. More powerful than what you should get for a one-level investment in a class, probably. But without the uber gear to make you undetectable by most of Avlis, it's still not an uber ability.

Just my inflammatory or counter-inflammatory opinion.

[Fifty]

I think the biggest problem is that you can use the skill whilst right in the middle of combat.

Can it be done so you have to move out of the threat area before HIPSing?

In that case it could still be powerful, a kind of rush in, hit, tumble out, hips, rush in, hit, tumble out but at least it would place some sort of restriction on it. It would slow down the speed at which a HIPSer can operate for a start, which would help, and it is pretty ridiculous that folks can hide whilst in combat anyway.

How about the option of casting light on a SD to stop them HIPSing? Forces them to take some spell resistance measures.

[Fifty]

If this is the team's opinion I hope that they will decide to take the time to talk to folks that have taken the Shadowdancer class and find out why the characters in question have taken it.

Don't wory, we're not going to go on a which hunt of SD's

boooooring.

[storminj]

only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?

who says we haven't?

What about the casters that use still and quickened spells in combat? That should not stop them from useing melee abilities like expertice.

Expertise doesn't cancel when you cast a spell.

That's the bug. But it's a different discussion.

Don't hijack, you bastard!!!

I dissagree, I think it should not cancel, thus is not bugged. I think it is a feat that is a combat investment that should be useable by those that make that choice. Even those that think it should cancel should agree that still and quickened spells should be useable while in melee, thus avoiding said cancellation.

The problem with that is that expertise is a skill that means you are good enough with your weapon skills to use them defensivly in combat. Thus you can take a negative to hit and gain AC. It is a combat feat designed to be used with weapon in hand and not casting spells. How can you use your casting on the defensive? With every feat like this there is negative with positive but with mages casting defensively and using this feat there is no negative for the positive....hence no balance.


On the SD front. If someone has only one level of SD it is pretty hard to say "power/meta-gamer....I am going to de-level you!" For you do not know when they took the class and what there characters goals are. This is especially true on Avlis where character progression is slow. I think I have obtained two levels in the last 4 months and if you see SD in it then how are you to tell it isn't one of the later. If I take 1, 2 or 10 levels of SD that is the way it goes....that is if I ever get to take any levels at that.

Prestige classes are not always made to go epic on either. They are just ways to make your character grow and be a little differant. True there are not as many reasons for SD to continue but there are some. I would like to see the uncanny dodge's stack and perhaps evasion bonus or somthing but there is always darkvision and I cannot waith for that.

My feeling is that it is my character, my choice on progression, and none of your business really.

[4x4_Ender]

Still, hiding for 5 seconds isn't the same as permanently dissapearing.

It is if your hide is high enough since you will stay hidden upon continuously beating their spot checks.

To put it plainly, hide in plain sight is BROKEN. The fact that you can do it in the middle of the day without any shadows even around is redicluous. But, that is bioware for you. Now that i think about it more, keeping the true seeing bonus were its at is a good idea. If one thin is overpowered that you cant do anything about, you simply have to compensate using other ways. I also thinks its a good idea to add in some more spot/listen bonus items for fighter types that cant cast true seeing. Some do exist, but those could be upped in the bonus they give i thnk. for example, the T'nanshi walking sticks only give a +1 bonus to spot. Maybe make them +5 or so?? And why not make helms give bonuses in spot and listen rather than concentration?? Makes more sense to me.

[WrathOG777]

only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?

who says we haven't?

What about the casters that use still and quickened spells in combat? That should not stop them from useing melee abilities like expertice.

Expertise doesn't cancel when you cast a spell.

That's the bug. But it's a different discussion.

Don't hijack, you bastard!!!

I dissagree, I think it should not cancel, thus is not bugged. I think it is a feat that is a combat investment that should be useable by those that make that choice. Even those that think it should cancel should agree that still and quickened spells should be useable while in melee, thus avoiding said cancellation.

<hijack>
Even if its quickened, while you're casting you're not defending, period. You interrupt your defensive fighting even for a second while you cast your spell, you gave your opponent a hole to strike in.
</hijack>

See, I think that split second you speak of is handled by the AoO.

[Malathyre]

Again, those are MY opinion.

But if your character is dedicated to be a SD, why would you only take one level of SD ICly?

And if your character is NOT dedicated to be a SD, why would you take it ICly?

Those are very fair opinions, and I respect your opinions, don't get me wrong. My only point is why don't you ask these folks and find out what their reasons are, to answer your questions? Do you think there can be legitimate answers to these questions or not? I may be skeptical myself, but I am not willing to write off these characters immediately without knowing anything about their reasoning. Most players love talking about their characters, so why not ask them?

There is a lot of character class/race criticizing that goes on and I think it is a little bit silly. I've seen people criticized for playing against a stereotype, and I've seen people criticized for playing to a stereotype. If a player isn't trying to cheese some ability or another, is what they are doing really making your life so miserable?

[lloydy]

question for the team can u play with the class and make hide in plain sight not a skil u get at first level may be put it up a few levels may be you wont get as many shadow dancers

just a thought

lloydy

[keikobad]

Still, hiding for 5 seconds isn't the same as permanently dissapearing.

It is if your hide is high enough.

But without the uber gear to make you undetectable by most of Avlis, it's still not an uber ability.

Once again, it's all about the gear.

[storminj]

Not trying to be a ass but coudn't you say that for any multiclassing? Specifically with PrC's? Isn't dedication relative? Say I wan' t to be a really sneaky shadow fighter? i want to melee from shadows and have much dedication to this....well there isn't a sneaky shadow fighter class so you have to make due with taking combinations of SD/Rogue/Ranger to make up for it. Who is to say that your combination is the wrong way to go about it? I mean beside a nosey DM

Again, those are MY opinion.

But if your character is dedicated to be a SD, why would you only take one level of SD ICly?

And if your character is NOT dedicated to be a SD, why would you take it ICly?

And if your character decide to take it and then said, well, I don't like that anymore, so I'm not training myself towards being a SD, then, why should you retain the skill?

For Paladins, you have to be LG. AND, the fact that there's an intrinsic cheesing/frowning on Other Class X / Pal 1, just as Other Class X / Monk 1. would have.

Those are just my opinions, and not the opinions of the team.

[Tyrion77]

*shrug* i don't rate the class.. beyond Hips at least anyway and i'm damned if i'm going to take only 1-3 level's or SD no way.. 10 at least.. if i take an SD level i'm going to "be" an sd not a rogue with the ability to melt into shadows

D8 HP? 6+int mod skill points? Don't rate the class? Are you mad man?

heh that's only an avrg +1 hp, 2 less skill points and the loss of my sneak attack for those levels so.. thanks but no thanks

[keikobad]

See, I think that split second you speak of is handled by the AoO.

Isn't the Expertise bonus added to your AC for the AoO? I haven't tested it, but the bonus shows up in all kinds of situations where you couldn't conceivably be doing anything to protect yourself.

[4x4_Ender]

question for the team can u play with the class and make hide in plain sight not a skil u get at first level may be put it up a few levels may be you wont get as many shadow dancers

just a thought

lloydy

YES! I think this is an ideal solution to this problem, and probibly the easiest.

[FunkOdyssey]

[WrathOG777]

only one I found was a MODULE_VAR_AI_STOP_EXPERTISE_ABUSE which is specific to using Expertise while casting spells. Hey, we gonna turn that one on?

who says we haven't?

What about the casters that use still and quickened spells in combat? That should not stop them from useing melee abilities like expertice.

Expertise doesn't cancel when you cast a spell.

That's the bug. But it's a different discussion.

Don't hijack, you bastard!!!

I dissagree, I think it should not cancel, thus is not bugged. I think it is a feat that is a combat investment that should be useable by those that make that choice. Even those that think it should cancel should agree that still and quickened spells should be useable while in melee, thus avoiding said cancellation.

The problem with that is that expertise is a skill that means you are good enough with your weapon skills to use them defensivly in combat. Thus you can take a negative to hit and gain AC. It is a combat feat designed to be used with weapon in hand and not casting spells. How can you use your casting on the defensive? With every feat like this there is negative with positive but with mages casting defensively and using this feat there is no negative for the positive....hence no balance.

See, this is the assumption I see pretty often. Just because someone has expertice and can cast spells they are not meleeing. Well, take a quick look at the real cases of characters out there that have expertise and cast spells and you will see casters that DO melee a ton and use expertise in sticky situations just like any other tank would. Ayren is one of them for instance. He can use expertise to hold of enemies. Should casting haste on himself stop him from useing combat modes for the next few rounds? The time it takes NWN to go back into a mode after you get kicked out is just awful as I am sure anyone that uses them is well aware.

[Emprod]

Wrath, I get you. It's ok, relax man

I took improved combat casting, so that I can cast spells in someone's face without an AOO. It's fun, trust me.

But expertise is a fighting skill. It's a bug that one can cast and not break out of it. You can't do ANYTHING but fight, and not break out of it. It's a coding mistake. Someone fucked up. Don't argue.

[FunkOdyssey]

I'm ready to make a serious contribution to the solution of this epidemic.


To put things in perspective, have a look at this list of PrC's and their best abillities-

Weapon Master- Ki Critical, lvl 7

Assassin- Improved Invisbility, lvl 9

Dwarven Defender- Damage Reduction, lvl 6

Pale Master- Immunity: Critical Hits, Deathless Master Touch, lvl 10

Red Dragon Disciple- +4 to STR, +2 CHA, +1 AC, Immunity: Fire, Immunity: Paralysis, Immunity: Sleep, all at lvl 10

Shadowdancer- HIPS, lvl 1


My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10. This will accomplish many significant things:

- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team

- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability

- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.