true seeing on avlis

DanaS · Post by **DanaS** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:07 pm

Cymbolism wrote:
DanaS wrote: True seeing with massive spot bonuses will be fair when rogues can cast dispells, heals, or buffs without having to sacrifice anything.
A L6 spellslot is nothing to be sneezed at - it is a sacrifice.

A sacrifice, yes, but a very, very, small one. If I could sacrifice a d6 of sneak attack damage for being able to get use of a cross-class skill far beyond my level that stacked with any other cross class ranks I already had in those skills, I wouldn't even have to think about taking it.

Jordicus · Post by **Jordicus** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:13 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:true sight does not currently provide immunity to illusion, it should provide immunity to illusion.

actually it does.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:06 am

In PnP it basically gives immunity to illusions (and lets you see that a polymorphed creature is polymorphed) and see invisibility. Its not supposed to be THAT great of a spell in the first place. Its good, sure, but its a trade off. Right now, its too good.

The issue is that some people have stores of really good hide/move silently items, and that there aren't very many good spot/listen items.

Clerics, Druids, and Mages are not supposed to be ubergood at spotting stuff. They already are the most powerful classes anyway.

Complaining "I won't be able to see stuff anymore even though I didn't put any real effort into that ability" doesn't make sense.

Immunity to illusions is still pretty good, and if you don't want that, you can always just use your second level spell slot to cast see invisibility instead and memorize another circle of death or flesh-to-stone spell. What are you using those extra slots for anyway?

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:00 am

Titanium Dragon wrote: Clerics, Druids, and Mages are not supposed to be ubergood at spotting stuff. They already are the most powerful classes anyway.

Complaining "I won't be able to see stuff anymore even though I didn't put any real effort into that ability" doesn't make sense.

See, what I am worried about are the rogues that specialize in spot/listen and cannot find folks that are hidden.

If rogue max spot < whoever has max hide and rogue max listen < whoever max move silent then we have a problem. This is definately the case, a rogue does not have a remote chance to spot a ranger even with normaly available gear.

Other thing that bugs me is the assumption that buffs are only used on casters. I buff the rogue in my groups when I have one. That is who gets true seeing.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:20 am

WrathOG777 wrote:
Other thing that bugs me is the assumption that buffs are only used on casters. I buff the rogue in my groups when I have one. That is who gets true seeing.

Very good point. I've spent a lot of effort raising spot and listen. OUt of the blue, a mage cast true sight on me a couple of weeks ago. I looked at the character sheet and nearly crapped myself. You're right thats definitely the best tactic.

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:15 am

Titanium Dragon wrote:
Clerics, Druids, and Mages are not supposed to be ubergood at spotting stuff.

<snip>

you can always just use your second level spell slot to cast see invisibility instead and memorize another circle of death or flesh-to-stone spell. What are you using those extra slots for anyway?

Druids and clerics don't have See Invisibility.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:17 am

They have invisibility purge though.

DanaS · Post by **DanaS** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:56 am

Buffing people who have the skill is all good and well but the fact still remains that people without the skill can get it for free without doing anything. A sixth level spell slot for the ability to beat a class at it's own game? It's just wrong.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:22 am

No offense, but you've been registered on this board for what? 3 days?

True-seeing's 2/level skill bonus doesn't effectively counter-act the number of hide-boosting items floating around Avlis that are easily obtainable by level 8-10 characters specializing in hide/ms.

Have you actually read what Keikobad's been saying about spot? A level 10 character can easily defeat 36-40 points of spot from items.

Are you saying this is an acceptable balance to let rogues and rangers run around without ANY chance of anyone spotting them?(Most rogues and rangers on Avlis can't find themselves in the mirror, is this right? And what about the classes with say listen as a class skill? They get screwed over majorly now as it is as well...)

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:04 am

Nob, did you actually read what that guy HAS? That guy has stuff that 99% of Avlis does not. That guy has really really good gear for a level 10 character. Most people don't have cloaks of elvenkind +10 you know.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:52 am

Ah, what the hell I might as well join this discussion too...

*throws 2 pennies into the pot*

As a wizard, I never used True Seeing. The number of times it might have been useful were so low, that I would rather have another chain lightning or something else. See Invisibility, was more than enough for me.

In my view the spell is only really of use in PC vs PC meetings. NPCs don't seem to use stealth at all effectively. I only hear of it been used to spot rogues / rangers / invisible types, and usually by the army or law-keepers. Your regular non-army / non-law-keeper will not use this spell regularly.

PnP clearly states that it should not allow you to spot thing that are hidden mundanely. I agree with that because:
a) that's what the rule book says
b) it makes a mockery of people who actually spend points on spot
c) I like having rogues sneaking around the place - it adds a little spice to the game, makes it more fun, etc. Hide in Shadows and Move Silently were put in the game for a reason after all

I think the spell should be made more like the PnP description: e.g. immunity to illusions, immunity to darkness, see invisible, etc.

If you did this, I'm sure the main people to complain would be the SoT and the Army. But that's only because they've had it good for too long. The majority of the players on Avlis would rejoice.

Well, thats my view *shrugs* take it or leave it.

PS: I don't play a rogue, I just think it is unfair for someone to be able to spot someone hiding, using this spell without expending any skill points at all.

EDIT: One other thing. People seem to think that this is an argument between rogues and mages/clerics. Well it is not! Other classes don't get this spell and have to spot things the hard way - by spending points on spot. And it is v. hard when you don't get many skill points per level. Please think of those folk too!

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:11 am

In my view the spell is only really of use in PC vs PC meetings. NPCs don't seem to use stealth at all effectively.

Off topic, but: There are some that does, and they are damn go on it too. They have the shadowdancer class, and they sneak up on you and use the sneak attacks with great skill. Gotta love Ferrell and the Orc Infiltrators.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:13 am

White-Raven wrote:
In my view the spell is only really of use in PC vs PC meetings. NPCs don't seem to use stealth at all effectively.
Off topic, but: There are some that does, and they are damn go on it too. They have the shadowdancer class, and they sneak up on you and use the sneak attacks with great skill. Gotta love Ferrell and the Orc Infiltrators.

Well, thats just perfect

And then it makes even more sense - why should wizards and clerics be any better against these things than fighters and rogues who train in combat for such just occasions!

AUman · Post by **AUman** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:47 pm

Here?s my two cents on this. Everyone keeps saying in PnP DnD there is no spot bonus?true enough, but in PnP DnD would a DM allow someone to stand in the middle of a well lit room hidden? I?ve never DMed, but I?d guess no. We aren?t playing PnP DnD...we?re playing NWN, which while based off of DnD, it isn?t the same game. There are pros and cons to both sides.

True seeing was modified on Avlis to give rogues/rangers a chance, without making it impossible to detect them. As has already been pointed out, there is an abundance of hide gear, but very little spot gear. Some have said that you can?t get the good hide gear anymore, but I?d have to disagree. I?ve been playing for the past 9 months, and I?ve gotten gear that gives a hide bonus of 31, one item received in a DM quest, the rest bought in stores, and there are a more items out there (the good cloak of elvenkind, ring of hide, etc). So add in a bit of dexterity, and a scroll of camouflage, and it could be up to around 46 making her near unspottable by anyone without true seeing, and I haven?t spent the first point into hide.

Personally, I like it where it is. As it stands now, true seeing is beatable, but it is hard, as it should be because whoever is doing the sneaking is usually doing it to get an advantage...either information or a first blow...make them work for it.

*ching ching*

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:56 pm

AUman wrote:Here?s my two cents on this. Everyone keeps saying in PnP DnD there is no spot bonus?true enough, but in PnP DnD would a DM allow someone to stand in the middle of a well lit room hidden? I?ve never DMed, but I?d guess no. We aren?t playing PnP DnD...we?re playing NWN, which while based off of DnD, it isn?t the same game. There are pros and cons to both sides.

*ching ching*

True enough, but that's a problem with Hide and bad roleplaying, to fix that with True Seeing is not good enough, because not everyone has access to True Seeing (e.g. my fighter).

So to argue that True Seeing giving a high spot is OK because it balances out rogues using their "Hide in well-lit room" skill, isn't really very balancing for any class that is not a rogue or mage/cleric.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:07 pm

There are 2 issues here that I see. The spell true Seeing and the Hide/Spot opposed rolls skill.

I always saw the hide skill of the Rogue being a major part of the character (and the Ranger I think but I don't play one so can't really comment). A vast majority of xp comes from combat and a Rogue relies on this skill to be able to perform another major part of their character, the Sneak attack. I see it as a major problem when you take away perhaps the 2 biggest parts of a character with 1 spell that is effectively permanent due to the duration of the spell. For this reason I think that the spell should be reduced.

And the opposed roles are only in favour of those that hide due to items currently available. There seems to be a feeling that the hide skill is too powerful but I think that any skill that is opposable can never be too powerful. Any skill you can autofail or that needs to be tested is only as powerful as the character using it and the character opposing it. Why shouldn't those skilled in remaining hidden be given a chance here and allowed to do so. Even if they get in a sneak attack then what is the problem. That is what they are there for. Suck it up and live with it I say.

IMO, the emphasis here should be on giving the advantage to people with the skills first (which have to be chosen) . I can choose to improve my Hide or my spot or I don't. Those that make the decision should get the benefits.

Got to work....

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:11 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote: So to argue that True Seeing giving a high spot is OK because it balances out rogues using their "Hide in well-lit room" skill, isn't really very balancing for any class that is not a rogue or mage/cleric.

Party up with a mage or cleric. Problem solved, partially at least (though any ranger lvl 10+ can beat True Seeing of a caster < ranger lvl + 10 currently... Rangers are the super-sneaks, not Rogues).
Without True Seeing, there's currently NO feasible counter to Stealth in Avlis.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:12 pm

AUman wrote:Personally, I like it where it is. As it stands now, true seeing is beatable, but it is hard, as it should be because whoever is doing the sneaking is usually doing it to get an advantage...either information or a first blow...make them work for it. *ching ching*

What is the point of someone who spends their entire life practicing the art of stealth when a mage can use 1 of the many spells that can be cast and make it near impossible to use unless you have uber gear!?!

Mages already have it good. This is just another nail in the coffin for other classes. The spell isn't even ment to help against non magical stuff anyway!!!

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:14 pm

kombinat wrote:Without True Seeing, there's currently NO feasible counter to Stealth in Avlis.

Why should there be? I thought the point was no classes are balanced (At least that is what I keep hearing about when points are raised about spellcasters!).

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:15 pm

kombinat wrote:
Dirk Cutlass wrote: So to argue that True Seeing giving a high spot is OK because it balances out rogues using their "Hide in well-lit room" skill, isn't really very balancing for any class that is not a rogue or mage/cleric.
Party up with a mage or cleric. Problem solved, partially at least (though any ranger lvl 10+ can beat True Seeing of a caster < ranger lvl + 10 currently... Rangers are the super-sneaks, not Rogues).
Without True Seeing, there's currently NO feasible counter to Stealth in Avlis.

Partying up is a good idea - but if I wanted someone to "scout" for me (i.e. spot hidden creatures and potential ambushes) then a mage/cleric is not my first choice for a scout.. and I can't see many taking on that role anyway.

You need a scout to spot a sneak, and that scout should be a rouge or ranger, or some other with skill in spotting, not some random magic user who only gets that ability because of a nerfed spell.

This is supposed to be a RP server, mages and clerics - are not scouts!

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:16 pm

maelwydd wrote:
kombinat wrote:Without True Seeing, there's currently NO feasible counter to Stealth in Avlis.
Why should there be? I thought the point was no classes are balanced (At least that is what I keep hearing about when points are raised about spellcasters!).

So you agree that there isn't. Thanks

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:17 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote: You need a scout to spot a sneak, and that scout should be a rouge or ranger, or some other with skill in spotting, not some magic user who only gets that ability because of a nerfed spell.

So have the mage/cleric cast it on the rogue/ranger before they go out scouting... that'd be the smart thing to do.

White-Raven · Post by **White-Raven** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:17 pm

One of my chars, have 23 ranger lvls + 3 Shadowdancer, can boost +24 hide from ranger spells, and add +4 to move silent. It doesnt last that long, and you need to have a good wisdom to be able have prepared 2 set of each spells.

She have a hide with normal battle gear of 62-63. The move silent is around 49. If i use max hide items, potions etc, I can reach 89 hide, but this isnt that useful, take of the +10 cloak of hide gives her anyway 88 hide.

This shows it is a limit how much hide can be boosted from gears and potions etc.

She have, +10 MS boots, +15 hide robe, +10 hide cloak + potions midnight airs. Her dex bonus is also high, but she is a bow user and maxed this ability as much as possible.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:19 pm

kombinat wrote:
Dirk Cutlass wrote: You need a scout to spot a sneak, and that scout should be a rouge or ranger, or some other with skill in spotting, not some magic user who only gets that ability because of a nerfed spell.
So have the mage/cleric cast it on the rogue/ranger before they go out scouting... that'd be the smart thing to do.

Yeah sure, everyone knows how generous mages are at casting beneficial spells on other people. Like that's really going to happen.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:22 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote: Yeah sure, everyone knows how generous mages are at casting beneficial spells on other people. Like that's really going to happen.

Hang around Ebony mages more, we're the nice guys