Help develop my character

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:57 pm

mortzestus wrote:But there's the matter of the shield, though. Shields with reduced arcane casting failure are very rare (virtually non-existant, i'd say).

Hence still spell...or does still spell not make up for the armor failure from shields? If not...that may change things.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:59 pm

Dralix wrote:You might want to consider the possibility of finding an armor you can cast in without failure ...

Would still need the armor prof., however. In any case, wearing such armor would prevent me from needing to take Still Spell (unless I want to use a shield, too...hmm maybe THAT was mortz's point), but it would also limit my armor options.

Dralix · Post by **Dralix** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:38 pm

Yeah I don't know about the shield. I was thinking of a specific armor I've seen for sale/trade a few times that Dralix would love to have if not for the feats required.

If Sinomi took fighter levels, the feats would not be an issue and you'd be able to save a feat that he'd otherwise use for Still.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:33 pm

Yeah, that was indeed my point. If you want to enjoy full protection while casting you'll have to get still spell because even if you get an armour with no arcane casting failure the shield is going to screw you big time anyway. A tower shield has a nice 50% failure built in, no less.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:37 pm

A few more considerations, which I'm mostly leaving here so I remember them.

If wizard levels, then my familiar (eyeball) improves, too.

If wizards levels, then not only do I get more spells, but my caster level improves (not sure I made this obvious point explicit before).

If at least four fighter levels, then I will get a third attack per round upon reaching 20th level. Otherwise, it's two attacks per round and a lower BAB (4 fighter levels is worth +4 BAB).

If four fighter levels, then two fighter bonus feats.

If five more wizard levels, then one wizard bonus feat.

It's worth mentioning that I found a featherweight full plate at the trade fair and bought it (thanks to S'Mee!). It's AC 7 and weighs only 5 pounds. That would help greatly with the weight issue. With a tower shield, that's about 20 poinds, and I usually only carry about 40 pounds anyway, so I wouldn't need to rely on bull's strength except when gathering ingredients for crafting.

Can anyone think of any small points that have been left out so far?

CPU · Post by **CPU** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:48 pm

szabot wrote:Can anyone think of any small points that have been left out so far?

There is a featherweight towershield out there too. I think it's from Rockhome though. Masterwork shields are also light weight (80% of normal weight) and can be easily bought in Elysia.

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:25 pm

CPU wrote:
szabot wrote:Can anyone think of any small points that have been left out so far?
There is a featherweight towershield out there too. I think it's from Rockhome though. Masterwork shields are also light weight (80% of normal weight) and can be easily bought in Elysia.

Yeah, Enverex used to have both of those. The tower shield weighs a mere 1.9lbs.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:46 pm

So much for my featherweight plate. Had it for less than a day...it disappeared from the chest in my inn room. Damn.

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:03 pm

szabot wrote:So much for my featherweight plate. Had it for less than a day...it disappeared from the chest in my inn room. Damn.

Well Duh, all featherweight equiptment is non-pallet, thus chest or body and crash = "poof"

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:13 pm

Enverex wrote:
szabot wrote:So much for my featherweight plate. Had it for less than a day...it disappeared from the chest in my inn room. Damn.
Well Duh, all featherweight equiptment is non-pallet, thus chest or body and crash = "poof"

Well Duh, that's not knowledge a person is born with. Someone has to tell you that.

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:20 pm

szabot wrote:
Enverex wrote:
szabot wrote:So much for my featherweight plate. Had it for less than a day...it disappeared from the chest in my inn room. Damn.
Well Duh, all featherweight equiptment is non-pallet, thus chest or body and crash = "poof"
Well Duh, that's not knowledge a person is born with. Someone has to tell you that.

Hence why you ask before you lay down the cash,

ave · Post by **ave** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:57 pm

Well the toughest thing to be killed would be a DWARF
BARD/PALE MASTER/DWARFEN DEFENDER and yes you will need much DM love to be converted into Lawful so to get those DD levels

Of course you could go druid/monk/shifter too

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:29 pm

szabot wrote:If at least four fighter levels, then I will get a third attack per round upon reaching 20th level. Otherwise, it's two attacks per round and a lower BAB (4 fighter levels is worth +4 BAB).

If four fighter levels, then two fighter bonus feats.

Nope. You just need two fighter levels to get bab 11 and three attacks per round. Four fighter levels would give you bab 12, though.

Also, four fighter levels would give you three bonus feats, not just two.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:39 pm

Enverex wrote:
szabot wrote:
Enverex wrote:
szabot wrote:So much for my featherweight plate. Had it for less than a day...it disappeared from the chest in my inn room. Damn.
Well Duh, all featherweight equiptment is non-pallet, thus chest or body and crash = "poof"
Well Duh, that's not knowledge a person is born with. Someone has to tell you that.
Hence why you ask before you lay down the cash,

Cheer up, szabot. At least you have learnt that the world is full of greedy bastards that will try to scam you if they can. And Enverex, selling an item that can be bought at merchants, probably for a higher price (heh) and not even informing that the item is non palette sucks ass. A big pffft to your "hence blah blah" and to all those greedy traders who make deals like this one. Just lame excuses to fill your pockets at the expense of people.

Hortis · Post by **Hortis** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:45 pm

ROTE at least tells people when we sell stuff from off-world that's non-palette.

So... much... work... telling... people...

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:06 am

mortzestus wrote:
szabot wrote:If at least four fighter levels, then I will get a third attack per round upon reaching 20th level. Otherwise, it's two attacks per round and a lower BAB (4 fighter levels is worth +4 BAB).

If four fighter levels, then two fighter bonus feats.
Nope. You just need two fighter levels to get bab 11 and three attacks per round. Four fighter levels would give you bab 12, though.

Also, four fighter levels would give you three bonus feats, not just two.

I thought fighters get +1 to BAB per level and bonus feats at even levels, starting at level 2. Am I wrong?

loki70 · Post by **loki70** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:23 am

szabot wrote:
mortzestus wrote:
szabot wrote:If at least four fighter levels, then I will get a third attack per round upon reaching 20th level. Otherwise, it's two attacks per round and a lower BAB (4 fighter levels is worth +4 BAB).

If four fighter levels, then two fighter bonus feats.
Nope. You just need two fighter levels to get bab 11 and three attacks per round. Four fighter levels would give you bab 12, though.

Also, four fighter levels would give you three bonus feats, not just two.
I thought fighters get +1 to BAB per level and bonus feats at even levels, starting at level 2. Am I wrong?

No, they do get bonus feats on even levels, but they also get one bonus feat at first level. And the BAB is because of the levels in wizard, though I am not sure of the math on that one. I think it is 1 every 2 for wiz.

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:30 am

Fighters get also a bonus feat at level 1. Their bab progression is as you say, while wizards just get 1 bab per every two levels.

Just an example, to make it clear. Let's imagine that you decide to go something like wizard 8 pale master 10 fighter 2. You'd get 4 bab from the wizard class, 5 from pale master and 2 from fighter, for a grand total of 11 and three attacks per round. But if you go wizard 9 pale master 9 fighter 2, you'd just get 4 bab from wizard, 4 from pale master and 2 from fighter, for 10 bab and just 2 attacks per round.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:33 am

Let's see if I've got this straight:

If 6 wiz, 10 pm, then 8 BAB. Plus 4 fighter levels makes 12 BAB. At 11 BAB, I'd get a 3rd attack.

If 8 wiz, 10 pm, then 9 BAB. Plus 2 fighter levels makes 11 BAB, and also, thus, a 3rd attack.

Is that all correct?

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:20 pm

szabot wrote:Let's see if I've got this straight:

If 6 wiz, 10 pm, then 8 BAB. Plus 4 fighter levels makes 12 BAB. At 11 BAB, I'd get a 3rd attack.

If 8 wiz, 10 pm, then 9 BAB. Plus 2 fighter levels makes 11 BAB, and also, thus, a 3rd attack.

Is that all correct?

Correct.

4th lvl fighter gets you weapon specialization (which is +2 damage), another feat, and a few more hitpoints (~2d6).

8th lvl wizard gets you 2 caster lvls and 7th lvl spells(shadowsheild).

TheVortex · Post by **TheVortex** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:36 pm

Hm. You've kinda shot yourself in the foot early on, so to speak, with the plans to take so many Pale Master levels. I'm not saying having a Lich or Demi-Lich (lesser or otherwise) following you about is a bad thing (provided it's yours=), but you're completely killing your spell duration with the much lower caster level you're going to end up with and limit yourself to offensive spells, which again, use your caster level for the most part.

Initially, as we discussed in PMs/tells, I was going to suggest the fighter levels, but the more I looked at it, the more I started thinking that by doing that, you're limiting yourself severely in the spell department. Your durations will be horrible, even with extend spell, and the benefits of spells such as stoneskin will be insignificant. So...

I agree with Tangleroot's post stating: "Get wizzy levels, even the puniest elemental is 10x better than the PM pets."

Not only that, but if you take 10 Wizard/30 Pale Master, your spell use will be a bit more versatile due to increased duration, more damage you can take before spell collapse, etc. I'd highly suggest getting the metamagick feat "Extend" if you do not already have it, as well as the feat "Maximize". With Extend and 10 levels of wizard, you can at the least insure your spells like: bull's strength, endurance, flameblade, greater magick weapon, and so on - have a duration of a 20 level caster, as opposed to 10 (or the 5 as you are now). Ten levels of wizard will insure you have at least 100 points of DR from stoneskin and similar spells (which is like having an extra 100 hit points).

Also, I would get the armor feats, as suggested by WrathOG777 and Dralix (and others), and seek out some low or nil-arcane spell failure armor. It's out there.

Another alternative, which I think was suggested by WrathOG777, was to take at least 2 fighter levels. You could pull Fighter 2, Wizard 8, Pale Master 30 off and it'd be "cheaper" feat-wise for all the weapon (save exotic) and armor proficiencies, as well as allow you some access to discipline, but would still allow you to have a better caster level and duration. Sixteen turns (with extend spell) of your self-buffing spells is better than 10 turns.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:36 am

I believe that the plans are in place for palemaster lvls to count toward caster lvl or at least 1/2 of them.

Midknight · Post by **Midknight** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:41 am

Hm... looking at the comments so far, I recommend hiring a beefy fighter to play human wall.

Otherwise, I have to agree with Vortex on 2 Ftr.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:45 am

Arr, nothing beat survivability like having a good tank to stand behind instead of actualy having to fight anything yourself.

szabot · Post by **szabot** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:48 am

Thanks everyone. I've read all the suggestions and I've been thinking about this a lot. I have a lot of time before it matters, but at this point, I'm heavily leaning toward 2 fighter levels, the other 3 of course being wizard. This way, my spell progession and caster level before level 20 isn't slowed down too much, I get d10 HP's for two levels rather than d4, I get two levels of skill points to put into discipline (with a +6 INT bonus, that's a good amount), a third attack by level 20, and the armor, shield, and martial weapons feats. With still spell feat I can buff, put on armor, cast stilled offensive spells, and I'll be much harder to hit, can use a greater variety of weapons, and won't be weakened too much as a caster. Too bad I can't just keep going with pale master levels, but it will look badass to be a pale master in heavy armor, a tower shield, and a big flaming sword.