Expertise vs. dodge

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Dirk Cutlass
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Post by Dirk Cutlass » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:01 pm

Khaelindra wrote:I am interested which other mage spells give dodge AC though...enlighten me. :idea: :)
Umm... regular lvl 1 mage armor :roll: gives +1 to natrual, deflection, armor and dodge. Usually most characters already have at least +1 in the main types so they don't stack, but even when cast on a high level PC the lvl 1 mage armor spell will always give +1 dodge.

EDIT: and to answer the main thrust of the original posters question... They are both useful feats. Dodge is a pre-requistive for some other feats too, so it is essential if you want to take things like Spring Attack for instance. Expertise, and I have Improved Expertise (+10 AC) are invaluable. As a high-level fighter (hey ! I made it - I'm officially high-level now ;)) I find that I can use Improved Expertise and still hit a lot of stuff, but with a much higher AC than I would get otherwise. 8)
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Khaelindra
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Post by Khaelindra » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:20 pm

I only know one mage spell that gives dodge AC, and that is (Epic) Mage Armor (+1/+5 dodge and some others).
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Khaelindra wrote:I am interested which other mage spells give dodge AC though...enlighten me. :idea: :)
...
Dirk Cutlass wrote:
Umm... regular lvl 1 mage armor :roll:

...


Uhm...yes...that's ehm...what i thought, yes... :lol: :roll: :wink:
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Dirk Cutlass
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Post by Dirk Cutlass » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:55 pm

Khaelindra wrote:
I only know one mage spell that gives dodge AC, and that is (Epic) Mage Armor (+1/+5 dodge and some others).
...
Khaelindra wrote:I am interested which other mage spells give dodge AC though...enlighten me. :idea: :)
...
Dirk Cutlass wrote:
Umm... regular lvl 1 mage armor :roll:

...


Uhm...yes...that's ehm...what i thought, yes... :lol: :roll: :wink:
:P OK, so I didn't see your brackets around (Epic) - I thought you thought that there was just Epic Mage Armor, and you'd overlooked the old faithful lvl 1 spell :P
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Talwin Hawkins
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Post by Talwin Hawkins » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:18 pm

Ok i looked up and there is only one spell that adds dodge bonus other than mage armour (epic) and thats Haste!

adds +4 dodge bonus.

Hope this helps :wink:
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Dirk Cutlass
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Post by Dirk Cutlass » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:27 pm

Talwin Hawkins wrote:Ok i looked up and there is only one spell that adds dodge bonus other than mage armour (epic) and thats Haste!

adds +4 dodge bonus.

Hope this helps :wink:
Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! Then does that mean there is also Expeditous Retreat too? Its like a mini-version of haste, and gives +2 AC (might not be dodge though, you'd have to check to be sure, but if haste is dodge then this might be too).
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Post by WrathOG777 » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:29 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:
Talwin Hawkins wrote:Ok i looked up and there is only one spell that adds dodge bonus other than mage armour (epic) and thats Haste!

adds +4 dodge bonus.

Hope this helps :wink:
Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! Then does that mean there is also Expeditous Retreat too? Its like a mini-version of haste, and gives +2 AC (might not be dodge though, you'd have to check to be sure, but if haste is dodge then this might be too).
What you talking about?! Expeditous retreat gives no AC?

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.
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Post by Malathyre » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:30 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:
Dirk Cutlass wrote:
Talwin Hawkins wrote:Ok i looked up and there is only one spell that adds dodge bonus other than mage armour (epic) and thats Haste!

adds +4 dodge bonus.

Hope this helps :wink:
Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! Then does that mean there is also Expeditous Retreat too? Its like a mini-version of haste, and gives +2 AC (might not be dodge though, you'd have to check to be sure, but if haste is dodge then this might be too).
What you talking about?! Expeditous retreat gives no AC?
Actually, in the spell description it does say it adds +2 AC, though it doesn't say which type. If I had to guess, I'd guess it's a dodge bonus.
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Post by WrathOG777 » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:30 pm

You got for dodge...

Mage armor +1
Haste +4
Epic mage armor +5
Thus... +10 max from spells for an epic mage

I tried shadowed mage armor and that does not seem to stack with normal mage armor.

That is my opinion, not nessasarily anyone else's opinon, might just be, but that would be a coincodence, and damnit, sometimes the crap I write is not even my opinion either.
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Post by Talwin Hawkins » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:30 pm

No dodge. I think the reason is, is that haste gives you 50% extra speed where as expedious retreat gives you +150%, even if it is for a shorter time.

AFAIK mage armour and haste are only dodge adding spells.
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Post by Dirk Cutlass » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:47 pm

WrathOG777 wrote:
Dirk Cutlass wrote:
Talwin Hawkins wrote:Ok i looked up and there is only one spell that adds dodge bonus other than mage armour (epic) and thats Haste!

adds +4 dodge bonus.

Hope this helps :wink:
Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! Then does that mean there is also Expeditous Retreat too? Its like a mini-version of haste, and gives +2 AC (might not be dodge though, you'd have to check to be sure, but if haste is dodge then this might be too).
What you talking about?! Expeditous retreat gives no AC?
My bad. I was looking at the notoriously inaccurate on-line manual at http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwinternights/ it lists +2 AC for that spell. I just tried it in game though, and it has no AC bonus as pointed out.
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Post by mortzestus » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:49 pm

Khaelindra wrote:I only know one mage spell that gives dodge AC, and that is (Epic) Mage Armor (+1/+5 dodge and some others). This and the fact that mobility dodge AC is a non-issue (as someone with tumble 15+ will not succeed in ever using it even if they tried) made me wonder why the limit was relevant. No biggie.

I am interested which other mage spells give dodge AC though...enlighten me. :idea: :)

The spells i had in mind were Epic mage armour (+5), mage armour (+1) and haste/mass haste (+4). As i said, that's a +10 since both mage armours stack. You can get even more than that with some exploitative use of shadow conjuration (yes, it can be done if you do it right but i'm not giving info about exploits in an open forum :P).

About tumble and mobilty, there's a serious misconception out there. Tumble doesn't make you immune to AoOs, period. Tumble will help you to avoid AoOs caused by movement in combat but if you drink a potion, cast a spell, attack unarmed without improved unarmed strike or shoot a ranged weapon in melee you are not going to get a tumble check to avoid the AoO caused by this, you are going to eat it no matter how good you are at tumbling. The enemy will roll his attack and if you have mobility you'll get +4 dodge AC, quite relevant for a caster or an archer. Mobility is a useful feat even though most people just take it en route to spring attack or to meet the requirements for the shadowdancer PrC.

EDIT: And anyway, my point was that if the dodge AC provided by tumble and expertise counted towards the cap, it would be extremely easy to hit it and the improved expertise feat would become less desirable. Since this is not the case, i don't think that too many people in Avlis are going to have issues with the dodge cap any time soon.
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