The Shadowdancer Epidemic

Croton · Post by **Croton** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:07 pm

From reading this thread there are 3 types of suggestions:

1. Do nothing...play the game.

2. Bump the level that you get HIPS to 5,7,, 10 etc.

3. Limit the # of times you can use it per day based on level.

I'd like to throw in a 4th:

4. Have an XP point penalty for SD if the levels aren't balanced. Right now if you have SD it doesn't count against you when your levels aren't balanced. This would be a penalty that would last for as long as the character has just s few levels in the class.

Tyrion77 · Post by **Tyrion77** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:12 pm

i like the 2nd option the most, that way it also fits in with all the other presige classes as well and gives a good reason for investing more than 1 level into the class.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:13 pm

Hey, I hear fighter get their best ability, to use a weapon, at first level. How about we move it back to about 10th level and really make them sweat.

Oh! And mages too, they get to cast spells from level 1 right off the bat! Talk about front loaded!!

Get the feeling I am pissed off with my character constanly loosing the ability to function as he wants to!!!

Well, you guessed right.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:17 pm

Hide in Plain Sight is quite broken.

1) You're supposed to need shadows to hide in. It shouldn't be possible to use the ability if you have any items that shed light, or are around someone who is shedding light.

2) Shadowdancers are supposed to have some special connection to shadows. It goes beyond just hiding in them all the time. The Hide in Plain Sight ability is a supernatural one - a magical one, due to your connection with shadows.

3) The way NWN combat works its broken. You cannot suddenly change/designate a target in the middle of combat.

If just #1 was fixed, I'd wager there would be far, far fewer shadowdancers. I know Sh'lieulias glows in the dark when he wants to. If you couldn't hide in plain sight while the target of a light spell/within the radius of a bright light (like some items, like the Nanshi walking staff, shed, or during daylight hours in non-forest external aresas) the problem would be solved.

Much of the Nanshi army now has shadowdancers, and thanks to Green Raven and other older characters have uber hide equipment. Do all of them roleplay having a deep connection with shadows? Did they?

Its not just an ability people - its a class, and a way of living and fighting. Its just like taking 1-2 levels of paladin, rogue, or ranger - trying to get maximal benefit at minimal cost. How many people have 2 levels of rogue but 20 tumble due to those two levels? Its the same bloody thing with shadowdancer. If you take just one or two levels of it for HiPS, that's metagaming.

Funk's suggestion is the best - raise the level on the ability to the seven-to-ten range (I'd suggest ten, as it is about as good as the extended critical range of a weaponmaster or the immunity to critical hits of a palemaster), and it would be a very legitimate thing. People would have to make a real, visible sacrifice to get that ability, working towards it slowly. We might still end up with numerous shadowdancers, but at least we might not have quite so many flitting out of sight in the middle of the road to Mikona.

I log in, and there are often 4-6 shadowdancers on the wilderness in the form of the Nanshi army, and Green Raven and others in the army are encouraging EVERYONE to become one. But like palemaster, it goes beyond a simple ability - it is a specific choice for a specific type. Not every neutral and evil mage is going to go down that route, because it means something significant. People don't realize that being a shadowdancer is just as significant a choice, and aren't really RPing it as far as I can tell. Its just a matter of course to them, and that's a problem.

Becoming an arcane archer is significant, because it takes specific choices to become one (and you pretty much have to triple-class if you want to take it early on, and most are triple-class) and leads a certain way. I have seen maybe two or three arcane archers, and that quest has been in a LONG time, and at least one of them didn't even get their level in it through that quest! However, shadowdancer has been in for a very short time, and many, most rangers and rogues have levels in it.

This is sending a very clear message about this class and what people are thinking about it.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:19 pm

maelwydd wrote:Hey, I hear fighter get their best ability, to use a weapon, at first level. How about we move it back to about 10th level and really make them sweat.

Oh! And mages too, they get to cast spells from level 1 right off the bat! Talk about front loaded!!

Get the feeling I am pissed off with my character constanly loosing the ability to function as he wants to!!!

Well, you guessed right.

Those are core classes, and you don't see level one mages casting timestop. That is the equivalent of Hide in Plain Sight; magic missle is not. Extended Critical Range is the equivalent of Hide in Plain Sight; ki strike is not.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:24 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:Hide in Plain Sight is quite broken.

1) You're supposed to need shadows to hide in. It shouldn't be possible to use the ability if you have any items that shed light, or are around someone who is shedding light.

2) Shadowdancers are supposed to have some special connection to shadows. It goes beyond just hiding in them all the time. The Hide in Plain Sight ability is a supernatural one - a magical one, due to your connection with shadows.

3) The way NWN combat works its broken. You cannot suddenly change/designate a target in the middle of combat.

If just #1 was fixed, I'd wager there would be far, far fewer shadowdancers. I know Sh'lieulias glows in the dark when he wants to. If you couldn't hide in plain sight while the target of a light spell/within the radius of a bright light (like some items, like the Nanshi walking staff, shed, or during daylight hours in non-forest external aresas) the problem would be solved.

Much of the Nanshi army now has shadowdancers, and thanks to Green Raven and other older characters have uber hide equipment. Do all of them roleplay having a deep connection with shadows? Did they?

Its not just an ability people - its a class, and a way of living and fighting. Its just like taking 1-2 levels of paladin, rogue, or ranger - trying to get maximal benefit at minimal cost. How many people have 2 levels of rogue but 20 tumble due to those two levels? Its the same bloody thing with shadowdancer. If you take just one or two levels of it for HiPS, that's metagaming.

Funk's suggestion is the best - raise the level on the ability to the seven-to-ten range (I'd suggest ten, as it is about as good as the extended critical range of a weaponmaster or the immunity to critical hits of a palemaster), and it would be a very legitimate thing. People would have to make a real, visible sacrifice to get that ability, working towards it slowly. We might still end up with numerous shadowdancers, but at least we might not have quite so many flitting out of sight in the middle of the road to Mikona.

I log in, and there are often 4-6 shadowdancers on the wilderness in the form of the Nanshi army, and Green Raven and others in the army are encouraging EVERYONE to become one. But like palemaster, it goes beyond a simple ability - it is a specific choice for a specific type. Not every neutral and evil mage is going to go down that route, because it means something significant. People don't realize that being a shadowdancer is just as significant a choice, and aren't really RPing it as far as I can tell. Its just a matter of course to them, and that's a problem.

Becoming an arcane archer is significant, because it takes specific choices to become one (and you pretty much have to triple-class if you want to take it early on, and most are triple-class) and leads a certain way. I have seen maybe two or three arcane archers, and that quest has been in a LONG time, and at least one of them didn't even get their level in it through that quest! However, shadowdancer has been in for a very short time, and many, most rangers and rogues have levels in it.

This is sending a very clear message about this class and what people are thinking about it.

Can anyone tell me what is needed to have a shadow? Anyone?

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:28 pm

You do realize that only elves and archane casters can be Arcane Archers? this really limits teh amounts taking this PrC.

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:30 pm

Prerequisites for SD

Skills: Move silent 8, Hide 10, tumble 5
Feats: Dodge, Mobility

horatio · Post by **horatio** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:30 pm

I agree. HiPS is a bit over the top at lvl 1 SD. Raise the lvl of acquiring this feat is a fine idea Funk.

But that's not what inspired me to add more drivel to this abomination thread... this did:

Much of the Nanshi army now has shadowdancers, and thanks to Green Raven and other older characters have uber hide equipment. Do all of them roleplay having a deep connection with shadows? Did they?

I log in, and there are often 4-6 shadowdancers on the wilderness in the form of the Nanshi army, and Green Raven and others in the army are encouraging EVERYONE to become one.

With all due respect - Jesus TD STFU already! THERE ARE 2 SD I KNOW OF IN THE NANCY ARMY. GREEN AND BELINA. BELINA HAS ALWAYS SPENT ALL HER TIME IN THE SHADOWS, SO LAY OFF HER. AND UBER HIDE GEAR? YA RIGHT. THEN WHERE'S MINE? I BEEN IN THIS SHRUBHUMPING ARMY FOR A RL YEAR NOW AND I AINT GOT SQUAT FOR UBER HIDE GEAR. AND NO ONE HAS EVER EVEN SUGGESTED I BECOME SD!

So go ahead, discuss the merits and flaws of HiPS, but keep your verbaldiahreacinflamatoryantinancycrap out of it!

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:38 pm

I guess I did not realize that HIPS was as powerful as TIMESTOP. It sure doesn't seem that powerful to me. If I use it with Monster the monster most of the time still attacks but just doesn't get as good of attacks. When I have used it with other PC's they ussually still saw me unless lower level and I have decent gear.

I do not know why people think HIPS is soo powerful. There are other classes that are front loaded and you do not have to have a prequisite for those.
If we did wait till say level 5 for HIPS what would you have done in mean time? there needs to be some benifit for taking level. I suppose you could move down the other benifits like darkvision.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:40 pm

Shadowdancer gets evasion and uncanny dodge at level 2, and defensive roll at level 5, and i think they also get shadow evade and summon shadow around there. Plenty of benefits to tide you over while you wait for that hard earned HIPS around lvl 7-10.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:42 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:It shouldn't be possible to use the ability if you have any items that shed light, or are around someone who is shedding light.

No, here's what the SRD says.

As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. They cannot, however, hide in their own shadows.

There is nothing in there that makes reference to not being able to have any light source on or near the SD.

2) The Hide in Plain Sight ability is a supernatural one - a magical one, due to your connection with shadows.

I'd have to look that up, but I don't know how true that is. Ultimitly however it is up to the DM to decide the RP aspects of a given PrC, so what is true on Avlis might be different then what it says in the book. Not saying it will be, just saying it might be.

As far as fixing #1, that is simply not possible. That kind of thing is hard coded into NWN and there's no way of us doing anything with it.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:45 pm

Removed

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:47 pm

And what benefit does Darkvision give. I have noticed no difference and I have spent the last week in Deglos where I would expect to have a use for it.

This is so frustrating. Are people pissed off because there are a lot of SD's now as opposed to other classes ( I once commented about there being so many mages here when in fact in P&P mages were very rare and got shot down!) or because they are unbalancing (again, as has been done to death, the classes are not balanced) or because the SD's are going round killing other characters is CvC?

I have been involved in 1 CvC since becoming a SD and I didn't even use the skill. Before that I have had about 5 Cvc situations and only 1 time did I attack from hiding. That is what my character will do if threatened. That is his skill set.

Take away even the chance to RP that and I don't think I will stay around!

You have issues with people taking 1 level of SD then adress all characters that have only 1 level of a particular class. Better get it right first though because as far as I know, I don't think you can get to level 2 SD if you have not got level 1 SD!

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:51 pm

maelwydd wrote:Hey, I hear fighter get their best ability, to use a weapon, at first level. How about we move it back to about 10th level and really make them sweat.

There's a big distinction between a prestige class, and a base class.

And you're not discussing anymore (unless you seriously mean this), you're trolling for responses like a dick.

Malathyre · Post by **Malathyre** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:55 pm

croton wrote:From reading this thread there are 3 types of suggestions:

1. Do nothing...play the game.

This has my insignificant vote. See you all in game, where we can argue about better stuff, IC stuff, and not quibble over some rules and perceptions of cheese and meta/powergaming.

Ciaou.

Heronimous Fox · Post by **Heronimous Fox** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:58 pm

Suggestion 4.

Make pesto pasta and drink guiness..........no need for central heating tonight.

maelwydd · Post by **maelwydd** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:59 pm

Emprod wrote:
maelwydd wrote:Hey, I hear fighter get their best ability, to use a weapon, at first level. How about we move it back to about 10th level and really make them sweat.

There's a big distinction between a prestige class, and a base class.

And you're not discussing anymore (unless you seriously mean this), you're trolling for responses like a dick.

Wrong. It is called sarchasm and getting fucking annoyed with people copnstantly trying to fuck up my character because they don't like it! When you start to call me a DICK then that is when you have fucked up me trying to respect you!

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:59 pm

This has my insignificant vote. See you all in game, where we can argue about better stuff, IC stuff, and not quibble over some rules and perceptions of cheese and meta/powergaming.

I wish I could take that advice, because I have more important things to worry about too.

But every time someone takes only 1 or 2 levels of Shadowdancer, God kills a kitten. I feel like it is my responsibility to do something about it being a cat lover and all.

Dralix · Post by **Dralix** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:11 pm

maelwydd wrote:Are people pissed off because ... the SD's are going round killing other characters is CvC?

I'm not exactly getting involved in this because I'm not really sure what my opinion is at this time. And that's despite having an entire whispered conversation of mine written down by someone I had no clue was there (or have those damn Gnomes invented a voice recording device).

All I want to say is that the CvC aspects of this are not limited to combat.

And that I don't really like pesto that much.

Or cats ...

kokobil · Post by **kokobil** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:15 pm

the whole damn NWN engine is broken! Spells missing , spells badly implemented, And yes hide in plain sight is broken. And the classes are bad implemented. In the rule book the advantages PrCs offer are implemented in high levels of the standard classes. So you have to be straight ranger to take hide in plain sight for example. The whole engine is messed up . As things are now what can be done?
Give some uses per day in "hide in plain sight" maybe 2 + (1 per 3 levels ) per day.
But TS should not show them. IF you want to see them feed on the spot or listen. And give out soem items that enhace these skills a bit as the cloacks of evelkind do for the hide skill.

4x4_Ender · Post by **4x4_Ender** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:18 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:
This has my insignificant vote. See you all in game, where we can argue about better stuff, IC stuff, and not quibble over some rules and perceptions of cheese and meta/powergaming.
I wish I could take that advice, because I have more important things to worry about too.

But every time someone takes only 1 or 2 levels of Shadowdancer, God kills a kitten. I feel like it is my responsibility to do something about it being a cat lover and all.

I think there is something that your missing funk that has already been mentioned numerous times on this thread: Shadow Dancer was JUST implemented very recently, so your not going to see anyone with 4-5 levels in it yet obviously unless their playing 24/7 or powergaming some exploit.

Can you predict the future and say for sure that these people wont take more levels in the class?? I cant.

However, i do still like your suggestion for moving the HiPS ability up in level and dropping something else down to lvl 1. Just stop being such a judgemental prick.

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:20 pm

Is that because people take that level, see the HiPS ability, and start... oh, nevermind. *coughs*

I have read the rules on Hide in Plain sight. Thing is, if you cast a light spell on someone, that is a thirty-foot (or is it twenty?) radius of light. That means there won't be shadows there. Ten feet is quite a distance. That means that if you are next to someone with a fifteen-foot light radius (i.e. anyone in the AKN), you wouldn't be able to use the ability, or if you had a 10-foot light radius item you wouldn't be able to use it either. My mage has a 20-foot light radius from his staff, a fifteen footer from his belt, and a fifteen footer from his helmet. I think he has something else that glows too. In short, there's no way you could use this while meleeing him - he glows too bright. If someone cast a level 0 light spell on you, you couldn't use the ability either. It would make that and continual light actually useful, and simulatenously make HiPS not so uber. Everyone would want glowy items, but that has its own penalties... namely to their own hiding abilities, and also the fact that they glow in the dark.

Additionally HiPS is a supernatural ability. That means that it is magical in nature, and True Seeing should be able to see right though it. There is no way to do that AFAIK without making TS see through normal hide (which is really a pity). Also, spells that nullify magic in an area would prevent you from using that ability.

Because I doubt any of that can be implemented, I'd rather move HiPS up to tenth level rather than allow the rediculousness that is going on right now.

And yes, FYI, Green has asked people to pick up shadowdancing abilities due to its usefulness (if you press the issue, I'll look for the post). My army character will not because he is a ranger - he isn't a creaturee of the shadows. Also, I just don't see a wemic being a shadowdancer. I mean, I'm like ten feet long already!

Post by **Urizen** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:33 pm

How about if there is a delay while you are "melting into shadows" instead of just popping out of sight, sort of like the delay time in casting spells?

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:34 pm

Titanium Dragon wrote:Thing is, if you cast a light spell on someone, that is a thirty-foot (or is it twenty?) radius of light. That means there won't be shadows there.

That assumes that the mentioned light sources create no shadow. Which is honestly, completely impossible. In fact the more light sources, the more shadows. It doesn't say how big the shadow needs to be, just that one needs be there.

Oh also light sources already give a penlity to the hide role.

Additionally HiPS is a supernatural ability. That means that it is magical in nature, and True Seeing should be able to see right though it.

Just because it's supernatual, does not mean it's magical. Please try to get your deffentions at least close to being corect.

Also true seeing does not see though all forms of magic, only though illusion, this is an supernatual ablity, not an illusion effect.

So for the most part, everything you have said up to this point is 100% wrong.