Is your stealth based PC a shadowdancer?

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:47 pm

Paul wrote:Will a character using HiPS become visible if injured by caltrops? Can caltrops injure someone hidden in such a way?

Interesting point, since i don't know any mean to get a character out of stealth (HiPS user or not). You can frighten, daze, stun, knock them down, whatever... even after a flesh to stone they remain hidden.

On the other hand, i like Nob's suggestion.

Orchid · Post by **Orchid** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:52 am

mortzestus wrote:
Paul wrote:Will a character using HiPS become visible if injured by caltrops? Can caltrops injure someone hidden in such a way?
Interesting point, since i don't know any mean to get a character out of stealth (HiPS user or not). You can frighten, daze, stun, knock them down, whatever... even after a flesh to stone they remain hidden.

On the other hand, i like Nob's suggestion.

Yes, if you don't have damage resistance for it.

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:00 am

I still think Avlis, and CoPaP in general, needs glitterdust as a spell, and in some sort of grenade bag form... costly, and would have penalties to things like search, spot and concentration, but yeah... pretty much impossible to hide in.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:15 am

Fuzz wrote:I still think Avlis, and CoPaP in general, needs glitterdust as a spell, and in some sort of grenade bag form... costly, and would have penalties to things like search, spot and concentration, but yeah... pretty much impossible to hide in.

A dispellable large area effect, like Invisibility Purge... that's a good balance I think.

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:17 am

kombinat wrote:A dispellable large area effect, like Invisibility Purge... that's a good balance I think.

Does that work on HiPS? I did not think it did...

Gairus · Post by **Gairus** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:30 am

Nope. Hence ~like~ invisibility purge

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:17 am

Added to the Suggestion Box when I saw no-one had posted it yet.

viewtopic.php?p=376428#376428

Orchid · Post by **Orchid** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:26 am

KaiRal Windspar wrote:
kombinat wrote:A dispellable large area effect, like Invisibility Purge... that's a good balance I think.
Does that work on HiPS? I did not think it did...

work on hide you mean?

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:08 am

kombinat wrote:Added to the Suggestion Box when I saw no-one had posted it yet.

viewtopic.php?p=376428#376428

Something similar was suggested by keikobad some time ago and shot down instantly by a few who considered it "ridiculous". I don't think it's ridiculous in the slightest, though.

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:08 am

Invisibility purge purges invisibilty. Stealth means you are using your surroundings to remain 100% concealed, thus it isn't dispellable as there isn't anything to actually dispell!

Gorgon · Post by **Gorgon** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:09 am

Fuzz wrote:I still think Avlis, and CoPaP in general, needs glitterdust as a spell, and in some sort of grenade bag form... costly, and would have penalties to things like search, spot and concentration, but yeah... pretty much impossible to hide in.

You already have true seeing (not to mention plot doors) as a major thing for sneaks to deal with. Keep glitterdust as a spot skill bonus (included in the +50 max cap) and hard to find, otherwise they might as well not bother with CvC spying. If you want a private chat and don't want to bother letting anyone RP spying on you, do it behind a plot door. Otherwise, give the poor sneaks a small chance.

I know what you were getting at Fuzz, but sneaks already have a bitch of a time spying in any way if people take precautions. Spells like clairvoyance and amplify are used less than they should, but glitterdust done wrong would just be a way for any class to get an easy bonus when they feel like it. Against NPCs and monsters it would be a huge bonus, since they really don't hide well (unless we are including things like the sneaky Sereg'wethrin etc)

My character welcomes a challenge to his skill since he has spent all of his time getting better at being sneaky. If I was on another world that didn't fix true seeing a bit like Avlis, I wouldn't have bothered trying. If something like glitterdust was put in, I'd say keep it as a bonus to spot so it wouldn't help those maxed out with true seeing or whatever. Sneaks are limited in bonuses as well.

*Edited to remove my backwards thinking. Thanks Kombi*

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:28 am

Clairaudiance/clairvoyance is used often enough but Amplify is a bard only spell and thus its rarity. Even in scroll form only bards or UMDers would be able to use it.

And anyway, the duration of both spells is currently just round/level.

Gorgon · Post by **Gorgon** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:32 am

mortzestus wrote:Clairaudiance/clairvoyance is used often enough but Amplify is a bard only spell and thus its rarity. Even in scroll form only bards or UMDers would be able to use it.

And anyway, the duration of both spells is currently just round/level.

Used at the right time (before any important discussion) it would be more than long enough. You only need to find a sneak once to know you aren't alone. (same as glitterdust)

Anniko · Post by **Anniko** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:19 am

The glitterdust spell IS good, but its due to some person wanting his character to be uber that dont want it in, Glitterdust is a PnP spell, Avlis wants to be as close to PnP as possible, so i say, lets put it in

Orchid · Post by **Orchid** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:34 am

This new "disable rogue class" spell sounds nice for RP purpose even tho I play only sneaky characters. But it ruins too much I quess.

*wonders that his spy character is soon useless;people just try to make their IC experience more safe by OOC means*

I just thought it would be fun for guilds/factions to have spies. It's already very hard to gain usable information.

Comick · Post by **Comick** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:01 am

Anniko wrote:The glitterdust spell IS good, but its due to some fuckwit wanting his character to be uber that dont want it in, Glitterdust is a PnP spell, Avlis wants to be as close to PnP as possible, so i say, lets put it in

While you are at it put in all the nice PnP druid spells that are missing. I would love to cast Kiss of Death.

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:14 am

Enverex wrote:Invisibility purge purges invisibilty. Stealth means you are using your surroundings to remain 100% concealed, thus it isn't dispellable as there isn't anything to actually dispell!

A fatty fireball that incincerates all the surrounding ground cover should, but no.

Pekarion · Post by **Pekarion** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:15 am

I just love the guy who said "If you could get HiPS withouth taking SD, would you do it?" and no, I wouldn't. honestly, I would want the feat to become more "rogueish" if anything.

I'm going rogue all the way, what bothers me a bit is that, I'm not considered a "stealth specialist" anymore, It's like if I can't hide at all now.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am

Gorgon wrote:If you want a private chat and don't want to bother letting anyone RP spying on you, do it behind a plot door.

I think you mean any door, right? Avlis rules are that you are not to sneak through a door that someone else has opened, not just plot doors.

viewtopic.php?t=27277

Just in case someone else gets misled reading the above

Gorgon wrote: Against NPCs and monsters it would be a huge bonus, since they really don't hide well (unless we are including things like the sneaky Sereg'wethrin etc)

Seeing as NPCs and monsters abuse HiPS far worse than PCs ever can or would, my main interest would be in using it against them. I've already got enough tricks for the sucker foolish enough to try to listen in on Sand's conversations. This would be a spell he can use in combat to aid the party against HiPS-spamming monsters... right now there's none. Casting True Seeing on other characters in the party doesn't help because the monsters can still HiPS somehow.

Gorgon wrote:If something like glitterdust was put in, I'd say keep it as a bonus to spot so it wouldn't help those maxed out with true seeing or whatever.

Which would defeat the purpose completely and make adding the spell pointless. Nice.

Gorgon wrote: (Don't forget spot is used to find secret doors, so it would be a bit awkward there as well.)

Not following you here. Are you talking about Search?

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:31 am

Pekarion wrote: I'm going rogue all the way, what bothers me a bit is that, I'm not considered a "stealth specialist" anymore, It's like if I can't hide at all now.

With Camouflage, Mass Camouflage, Trackless Step, and even better, Camouflage + Mass Camouflage stacking, rangers are far and away the best stealthers out there, with a +24 Hide leg up on any other stealth class.

Pekarion · Post by **Pekarion** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:34 am

yes but I meant that, a ranger with 100 in hide wouldn't be considered a stealth specialist either, just because he doesn't have HiPS.

Comick · Post by **Comick** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:50 am

kombinat wrote:
Pekarion wrote: I'm going rogue all the way, what bothers me a bit is that, I'm not considered a "stealth specialist" anymore, It's like if I can't hide at all now.
With Camouflage, Mass Camouflage, Trackless Step, and even better, Camouflage + Mass Camouflage stacking, rangers are far and away the best stealthers out there, with a +24 Hide leg up on any other stealth class.

kombinat is quite right except he forgot to mention druids

. My 5th lvl rogue/ 6th lvl druidess can give a hard time to most of the spotters around. Don't forget that a stealther has often the advantage of the surprise: spellcasters don't have True Sight on usually unless they are looking for someone. I remember that M'Check Alpha Corps can get quite paranoid when they think Aqua might be around.

Btw Aqua IS a stealther specialist.

And you love me Pekarion ?! *blushes*

mortzestus · Post by **mortzestus** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:15 pm

Comick wrote:kombinat is quite right except he forgot to mention druids . My 5th lvl rogue/ 6th lvl druidess can give a hard time to most of the spotters around.

Druids get trackless step and can cast camouflage and mass camouflage too, but since they don't get hide and move silently as class skills they are just weekend sneakers at best, except if they multiclass into any of the "sneaky" classes. Druids are not sneaky per se.

Pekarion wrote:I'm going rogue all the way, what bothers me a bit is that, I'm not considered a "stealth specialist" anymore, It's like if I can't hide at all now.

Pekarion wrote:yes but I meant that, a ranger with 100 in hide wouldn't be considered a stealth specialist either, just because he doesn't have HiPS.

This is exactly what i had in mind when i posted this poll. I wanted to know if many people was bothering with playing a non-SD stealth based character. I was under the impression (and still am) that a significant amount of the sneaky PCs in Avlis are either shadowdancers or en route to get the PrC. I also was wondering if this is desirable, should it be true.

Comick · Post by **Comick** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:24 pm

mortzestus wrote:
Comick wrote:kombinat is quite right except he forgot to mention druids . My 5th lvl rogue/ 6th lvl druidess can give a hard time to most of the spotters around.
Druids get trackless step and can cast camouflage and mass camouflage too, but since they don't get hide and move silently as class skills they are just weekend sneakers at best, except if they multiclass into any of the "sneaky" classes. Druids are not sneaky per se.

I hate to say it but you're right.

Aerill · Post by **Aerill** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:19 pm

Orchid wrote:This new "disable rogue class" spell sounds nice for RP purpose even tho I play only sneaky characters. But it ruins too much I quess.

*wonders that his spy character is soon useless;people just try to make their IC experience more safe by OOC means*

I just thought it would be fun for guilds/factions to have spies. It's already very hard to gain usable information.

*coughs* Some people manage to do it very well without even using stealth.. *coughs*

As for the whole old Spot vs. Hide debate.. My character is a spot specialist (maxed Spot as class skill, True Seeing, Clairvoyance, Empowered Owl's Wisdom..) and I can get my Spot up to 70s, yet it still does not guarantee me I will see equal level stealth PCs. I can imagine what a trouble it is for those who do not have access to all of these tools, especially after I looked at my new Paladin character who definitely doesn't want to go Rogue just for Spot/Tumble/Evasion.

Oh.. and of course someone is slowly investing into Hide/MS too... very useful already..

The World of Avlis

Is your stealth based PC a shadowdancer?

Has your stealth based PC any shadowdancer levels?