Differences between Hide, etc

[A Wanderer]

I was just wondering exactly how Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen work.

Is hide only active when you're standing still, and move silently is the skill in use when you're moving? So then Spot would only work on people standing still, and listen only works on those moving?

I need to know because I was only going to put points into spot, but I was thinking I might need listen as well.

[tid242]

I was just wondering exactly how Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen work.

Is hide only active when you're standing still, and move silently is the skill in use when you're moving? So then Spot would only work on people standing still, and listen only works on those moving?

I need to know because I was only going to put points into spot, but I was thinking I might need listen as well.

yes, you'll want both

hide in shadows vs spot
move silently vs listen (when moving only)

Spot & listen checks are rolled at 1/2 skill points + 1d20 unless you're in detect mode (unless you're an elf, in which case it's always rolled at full skill points regardless of detect mode or not)

hide & move silently are attempted only when in stealth mode.

checks and counterchecks are made periodically and at specific times due to specific instances until a hiding person is discovered at which time they are always visable until they leave the detector's line of sight (or they use HiPS or cast invisi or whatever, obviously)

Hope this helps, you'll want points in all 4 skills.

-tid242

[tid242]

btw, if you want more detailed information I suggest you subscribe to the rogue's forum, there're a couple of detailed threads on the topic.

-tid242

[Aeveras]

hide in shadows vs spot
move silently vs listen (when moving only)

Hide vs. spot checks are made in and out of shadows. Does it make sense? Nope. That's NWN for you. Checks are made whether you're moving or standing still.

Listen checks are made whether you're moving or standing still, though standing still apparently grants a small bonus to either.

- Aeveras

[tid242]

Here: This is from the rogue's forum (which I quoted from the bioware forums).

As you can see it's all a lot more complicated than it seems at face value.

And Listen checks are made while not moving? - I never knew that.

-tid242

From Craig Welburn (developer),



"There are a large number of factors that affect a persons ability to Spot a creature.

At night:
- If the person hiding has a light source the spot check is adjusted by 10 in the spotters favor.
- If the spotter doesn't have a light source, the spotter gets a 5 penalty to spot the hiding character.

The spotter's spot skill.

The hiding creature's hiding skill.

Bigger creatures have a harder time hiding than smaller creatures (depending on relative size).

The direction the spotter is facing with regards to the direction the hiding creature is in.

Whether or not the spotting character is actively searching, or is in combat.

Whether or not you are blind.

Whether or not the hiding creature is invisible.

How far away the hidden character is.

Whether or not the hiding creature is standing still or not.

Whether or not the spotting creature is standing still or not.

Whether or not the spotting creature has a "Favored Enemy" bonus.

etc.

Its not a "simple" spot vs hide check, there is a large number of factors taken into acount when a spot check is made.

Craig"



And then this from Foxbat--



"Posted 04/21/05 22:32:39 (GMT) by Acrodania
Craig? Could you point us at the scripts that actually govern this so I can see? Pretty please? I'm curious and its taking a long time to physically open each script in the toolset to check them ------------

You won't find it in the scripts, fistly it's impossible since the engine offers no function access to making a critter visible to some and invisible to others. Secondly there is no event for this code to hook onto, the heartbeats reference nothing like this, etc. All of this mess is hardcoded.

Now that we have confirmed it actually is different under lots of situations maybe I'll code up a test module that can run these things in the 100s to deduce score adjustments from statistical trends. Then again, maybe It'll have to wait until after the end of the semester.
_________________


OK. And last, this from Ima Dufus (clearly, he's not.)



"Hi all.

I built a spot-ometer over the weekend to check some of these numbers and such. It turned out to be a lot harder than I would have thought due to an oddity with the Bioware stealth system (more on that later).

I can confirm the following:

- Carrying a torch at night reduces your hide skill by 10. (Haven't had time to check other light-emitting objects.)

- Moving (vs. standing still) effectively reduces your hide by 5.

- Versus NPCs facing away from you your effective hide skill is increased by 5.

- Your hide skill MIGHT be reduced during daylight hours (not sure how much, probably around 5)?

NOTE: None of these things show on your character sheet.

Now to the oddity I mentioned...

It turns out that your hide skill is not re-rolled on every opposing check. It is only rolled on occasion, and the resulting number is then used as the DC for ALL opposing spot checks. Exactly when it is re-rolled is a mystery (at least to everyone but Craig). What this means is that your hide skill varies by up to 19 whenever you hide. So one time you might roll a 20 when you hide and can move around with a torch without anyone seeing you. The next time you might roll a 1 and all of a sudden everyone is spotting you just standing still.

Like I said, there are some things that cause this hide DC to be re-rolled. I didn't have time to fully test this, so it could be crap, but it looked like simply moving to within the next range bracket of an NPC (which I think was 10 metres) caused the dice to be re-rolled. (It could have been some other reason though, I really don't know.)

I did notice in testing that a PC that was quite happily standing there hidden for hours was suddenly spotted when it turned into day again (ie. 7 am rolled around). This might mean that the hide is decreased during daylight (which would make sense). But it could also mean that the hide DC is re-rolled when night turns into day. Who knows.

Anyway, the point is that the persistent randomness makes it very difficult to measure some of these things, as the DC will vary considerably on each test. It also means that the circumstancial modifiers are eclipsed by this one roll, which probably explains why people (like myself) who have been playing for 2 years plus have never noticed them. Basically my players (who want to hide) just pile on the magical items until their hide skill is REALLY high, which seems to do the trick.

This was just FYI. If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Craig can give the real facts.

Seeya.

P.S.: IF the hide skill is reduced during daylight hours then I found a bug. Even though the area I was using was marked as interior and underground, and was set to night-time only lighting, the PC was still easier to spot during the day.
Edited By Ima Dufus on 04/27/05 05:52:01"



I sincerely hope those posts had something to do with your question, because if they didn't I just posted the longest bit of ranting nonsense in the history of this forum. But I particularly thought Ima's insight into how the checks are rolled was useful.

[A Wanderer]

btw, if you want more detailed information I suggest you subscribe to the rogue's forum, there're a couple of detailed threads on the topic.

-tid242

Thanks.

I send a message to someone to gain permissions to that forum, right?

[tid242]

I send a message to someone to gain permissions to that forum, right?

Correct, just follow the [Groups] link from the menu across the top of the screen under the Avlis banner. Usually takes a day or so I think...

You'll also probably want to subscribe to the Ranger/Druid forum as well I'd imagine - although I've found the rogue forum to be more informative *shrugs* but that might just be me.

-tid242

[Aeveras]

Yep, that's (as far as I can tell) as comprehensive a guide you'll get. And:

And Listen checks are made while not moving? - I never knew that.

Yep. I've both detected sneaks this way and been busted while standing still on a listen roll. Good read, and what tid said: subscribe to the rogue forum!

- Aeveras

[tid242]

Yep. I've both detected sneaks this way and been busted while standing still on a listen roll.

Oops, never said it, but thx for the nfo.

-tid242