POLL: use/equip un-ID'd Items & non-proficient weapons?

[dunniteowl]

Hello, everyone. My handle is dunniteowl and I am an avid RPG gamer, PnP designer of my own gameworld and hopeful designer of modules for NWN2 of same. Please read this thread to the end and then cast your vote. If you would like to debate the pros and cons of the subject matter, I ask that a new thread be started. Currently you can join the debate in the described link topic below, but don't let that stop you!

I am attempting to get as wide and varied a sample of the "Playing Population" as I can, so if you just play and don't wish to mod, please still make your voice heard.

Please read and then vote.

THIS IS A SIMPLE POLL

Should we, the players, be allowed to use and equip unidentified magical items and weapons and should we also be allowed to use and equip weapons and armor that we do not have the proficiency to use without a penalty? (I mean that we are not trained to use them and using them incurs a penalty on the use-- currently we can't even use them at all.)
This poll was suggested by a couple of folks in this topic: http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/vi ... 5&forum=95

This topic wound into a thread that related to an implied perception on the part of game developers in general on why some limits are in the game (I make no qualification as to how many think this, it only takes one in the seat of making the decision to make it so for us.)

In this particular case that implication came from this quote:

David Gaider
Lead Writer
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB
Posted: Saturday, 27 April 2002 12:12AM

On Friday, 26 April 2002 19:20, Syrsuro wrote:
Based on an offhand comment recently I believe that you will be unable to equip an item in which you are not proficient. But this was not explicitly stated. With regards to druids it appears to be true.

Sad but true... for all classes. With regards to both armor and weapons, if you are not proficient in their use you cannot equip them.

The only alternative was to have, I don't know, some kind of big flashing neon warning that covered the screen going ***WARNING! WARNING! YOU ARE ABOUT TO EQUIP A WEAPON WITH WHICH YOU ARE NOT PROFICIENT! YOU WILL BE AT -4 TO HIT!!*** or the like.

Anyone who knows 3E D&D, sure, they know the deal with being non-proficient... but with just about anyone else you know that they'll believe that if they can equip a weapon, it must be good to go.

Fortunately, using something you're not proficient in isn't something that comes up very frequently (in my experience, anyway), but there you have it. (And no... it cannot be scripted around. This is a hard-coded limitation.)

And this…

David Gaider
Lead Writer
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Edmonton, AB
Posted: Sunday, 28 April 2002 03:22PM

On Saturday, 27 April 2002 16:15, PNW Raistlin wrote:
Don't you provide a manual with the game? And can't you just write in weapon description next to BAB bonus, "- 4 (not proficient)"?

I really think that sometimes developers count the gamers as stupid or something.

Uh-huh. Of course we know that every gamer reads the manual before they play the game, right? And they've all played D&D, so they should know the tactics inside and out. And no gamer would ever complain that they seem to be hitting less with this great +3 greataxe they found without first pulling up their character sheet and looking at it first.

Are you under the impression that us developers have never interacted with the gamers before?

I know I wouldn't mind seeing this in, myself... I'm a hardcore D&D player, too. This change doesn't accommodate me, however, no matter how much I might wish that all things in NWN accommodated the hardcore D&D'er.

This is not to argue the case one way or the other. Please read on...

This is why we cannot use Unidentified Magic Items and Weapons that we are not proficient with.

I dispute this quite strongly. I have greater faith in my fellow gamer within the community at large and this is the basis for my faith:

Anyone who has ever read a book, watched a movie or played a Role Playing Game that has magic, weapons, heroes and villians, knows that not everyone is going to be able to know all the magic out there and they will also know that some magical things are really dangerous. Add to this that in all the previously mentioned media, at least occasionally the heroes lose their weapons for some reason and are forced to use something unfamiliar or that magic item that they know almost nothing of.

Sure, it's a risk, but at the time of use or equipping the item/weapon, it is use it or face certain death. Any risk of surviving outweighs the fact of knowing that the other option is death.

Due to this point of view, I am asking those of you who read this topic to please respond with either a yes, no, or don't care on the subject of should we be able to use and or equip weapons and items that we are not proficient with or have not identified. If you wish to debate the pros or cons, use the link provided above. I encourage all those who read this to vote, including new folks. I also ask that you only vote once.

Thank you fellow gamers, regardless of how this turns out.

dunniteowl

[rshampshire]

Personnally I'm split down the middle on this one.

For non-proficient weapons, then no you should not be able to equip them. I work in the software industry and we have a term that we use on a very regular basis internally to explain a lot of support calls (maybe other firms use the same term)... simply... RTFM

or Read The Fecking Manual!


In a perfect world everyone who bought a piece of software would read the manual from cover to cover before trying to use it. In actuality what happens is the majority of people start to use the software then use the manual as a reference when they get stuck. In a case where you were getting a -4 to hit penalty because your character is not proficient in a weapon, my guess would be most non-D&D savvy players would just call support assuming it was a clitch.


Equiping non-ID'd items though I take the opposite view. In Baldurs Gate you could do this and sometimes it was really useful... othertimes the item was cursed. The gamble you had to face was, in my opinion a nice touch.

[Arond]

I voted no just because I think it adds a bit more character to the game by restricting who can use what. It's a bit more fun to see folks running around with morning stars, maces, scythes, etc. rather than everyone using the same 'best' weapons.

[gwydion2]

I'd be happy to see people using weapons they lacked the skill for, as long as there was a significant penalty, like -6 say. Could be quite amusing seeing a mage waving a greatsword that he can barely hit the ground with, let alone his foe.

I don't see the need for people to use un-ID'd equipment. Get someone to ID it for you.

[deltak]

I think this should be allowed. IMO, if you can implement something in the game that the PnP game allows, then that's the way you should do it. The developers made a concious choice to do it this way and took many options away from us as end-user designers.

I'd love to have items that could never concievably be ID'ed, so the players would have to cross their fingers when using them. Or have a cursed item that the player could equip before detecting the curse. Or be able to *gaspola* use a pickaxe without having the martial weapons feat

Overall I think that NWN (and hopefully NWN2, but I haven't been following its development) are pretty much the best thing out there. But it could have been better if they hadn't made so many decisions like this that can't be bypassed.

[pincushionman]

Should be a module setting. Off by default in the main campaign, but availible for worlds like ours.