New XP System and CR

[Dirk Cutlass]

Well, I don't know who this Dark Cutlery fellow is, but he sounds a bit of an ass.

Apologies for the mis-information. I really was under the impression that one of the Team Members had (way in the past) doctored the CRs on a bunch of critters to stop people using examine window badly. I guess this is one of those urban-myths or rumours that takes on a life of its own.

Anyway, that being the case, the the conclusion that I still have, is that the new system makes it very difficult for certain character builds / character levels to collect XP from killing things...

Someone posted above, when fighting Dire Wolves, they got 0 for the wolves, but 30-33 for the Pack Leaders. That's fine if you can take on the Pack Leaders, but what if the Dire Wolves are enough of a challenge for you?

Now, it just so happens that my Ranger/Wiz (lvl 14 character) is at that point on the ladder where Dire Wolves are quite tricky but he gets 0xp, and I have no chance of getting to the Pack Leaders because I get chased out of the cave by the sheer number of Dire Wolves. Its just a consequence of the level I am vs the level of things that I spawn. I'm sure everyone's come across this phenonemum before (you get another level and things should be better, but you spawn harder things and end up getting the shit kicked out of you).

The thing is, with the old system, I used to get some XP from such a fight. Now I get nothing. Next level might be different. For other PCs it might be different. With a different spawn or dungeon it might be different. I'm pretty sure that this is the case. I already know for a fact that in a party I get better XP than before (partly due to party bonus, and partly because of party level vs spawn levels being "better"). However, with the old system, it used to kind of average out because you always got at least 1d4+1 XP. Now, it doesn't average out so well, because I've got a lot of 0s to add up.

The bottom line is that at the moment, when Fred tackles things on his own I am netting about 10% of the xp/day I used to previously get. In a party it is about 150% of the previous xp/day (if we go somewhere challenging at least). Now, the conclusion is obvious, I have to party up more!

My personal problem is that I don't have time to always party-up. Work and family stuff means that I get a very rigid 1 or 2 hour slot. Sometimes less (this weekend my "slot" for the whole weekend was 40 mins). Unfortunately, it sometimes just isn't possible to party-up and go adventuring in such a rigid time allotment. Not, if you RP it anyway, i.e. meeting up, pre-adventure shopping, travel time to destination, do the dungeon, etc. post-party healing and sharing of spoils, etc. My 40min slot would probably get me just inside the dungeon entrance and then I'd have to quit.

So, it is a bit of a quandry how Fred will make it to the higher levels. The irony is that if I'd built him as more of a power-build, thrown in some rogue levels, and changed some stats, not made him a gnome, then he would be quite able to take on those Dire Wolves now and the Pack Leaders. But as an RP build, it seems that the difficulty curve is a little too steep to enjoy at the moment.

Oh, and ...

Second, if you have a complaint, just make it. No need to hide it behind a question and an insinuation.

Well, I resent that actually. It really was a genuine question when it was posed in Ask The Team. When it moved to General Discussion, the thread's scope expanded somewhat and was more a ... well... general discussion. But, I certainly wasn't trying to mask a complaint behind that question. Anyway, I emailed staff@avlis.org about my concerns separately.

PS: Finally, I think, in general, and for Avlis as a whole the changes are good (it really will encourage partying-up more - it already has!), its just that for my particular circumstance, its a bit of a bummer.

[rshampshire]

I'm guessing here but someone did say that the change in XP calculation was specifically to prompt partying up.

Find yourself a meat shield and go whack things together

[Dirk Cutlass]

I'm guessing here but someone did say that the change in XP calculation was specifically to promt partying up.

Find yourself a meat shield and go whack things together

Yeah. Read the above piece again. It's easier said than done.

Also, to be honest... (and now I am getting very personal about my PC)... I can party-up, but I feel a bit of a fraud. If I party up with lower levels that I am unable to protect them when they need it, and anyway they generally have more fire-power than I do. When I party up with higher levels, I basically add very very little to the party. Sure I can track and search for traps, but I can't disable the harder ones or do locks, so I'm not as good a rogue. Fred really is an RP build and that's my only contribution to a party these days In play-testing (i.e. leveling-up a bit) he starts to come into his own when he goes epic, but I can't see that happing until 2008.

So, I'm going to quit this character and Avlis probably. Bye.

[Deider]

The thing is, with the old system, I used to get some XP from such a fight. Now I get nothing. Next level might be different. For other PCs it might be different. With a different spawn or dungeon it might be different. I'm pretty sure that this is the case. I already know for a fact that in a party I get better XP than before (partly due to party bonus, and partly because of party level vs spawn levels being "better"). However, with the old system, it used to kind of average out because you always got at least 1d4+1 XP. Now, it doesn't average out so well, because I've got a lot of 0s to add up.

I work an average of 60 hours a week. I commute 4 hours a day. I have an infant son. My PC is a monk/fighter/rogue with a multiclass penalty. And I live in Japan, not exactly the best timezone to run into all those Americans & Europeans (or even those wacky Brits). I FEEL YOUR PAIN.

It really depends on what you fight. Most times you'll get at least 1d2 xp, or 0-1 if you have a multiclass penalty. The only times you'll always get 0xp is when you are fighting something with a CR less than 10 and that CR is more than 7 less than your level. So if you are level 10 and killing standard Bioware goblins, no xp.

Something else you seemed to wholly ingore from an earlier post: if you feel like something's not worth the xp, here's a simple solution - don't fight it. There are dozens of dungeons in Avlis, and if it's a 'wandering' encounter, you've played here long enough to know how to avoid it.

So, what you are saying is that all those adjusted NPCs that are brutally hard but read as "Effortless" are actually going to give 0 xp now?

Is that right?

Seems like they were made "Effortless" to stop people from benefiting from the "examine" window, but as a result it screws up the XP system even further.

Parts bolded by me. I'll take your resentment and raise you a ball-busting.

[Arandil]

That was a problem, because epics were farming certain low CR dungeons built for lowbies. I'm not talking about those 'hated PGers', I'm talking respected members of the community. Groups of epics have actually kicked lowbies out of these dungeons so they could farm/camp

This bit..and Deiders hours..was the bit that really shocked me. Thats disgraceful behaviour.

Dirk, I hope you don't leave. Take a break for a few weeks and then see how the systems been tweaked , and if it makes it more fun for you. I have the same problem as you, albeit because my mains epic and I can't be arsed to start a new PC. For me, casual pick up dungeon raids are not an option, as I immediately reduce everyone elses xp to minimal amounts ( i.e. the golem caves with 3 other pcs - netted 80 xp in total, used up some heals and Fox died ( lol )). It was fun from a social point of view, and a valuable RP exercise, but my feeling of reward was blunted by the fact I'd nerfed everyone elses xp ( although they didn't complain of course, being 3 standout rpers ). What this means for me, is that I'll log in occasionally to get an RP fix, but for my gaming fix, go elsewhere for now. I'll come back in a few weeks and try out the system again, hopefully some more tweaks will have been done to make it a more viable gameplay system for my playstyle.

Deider, put your balls on ice man, it helps, hope I didn't add to your pain.

Cheers
Arandil

[Deider]

I have the same problem as you, albeit because my mains epic and I can't be arsed to start a new PC. For me, casual pick up dungeon raids are not an option, as I immediately reduce everyone elses xp to minimal amounts ( i.e. the golem caves with 3 other pcs - netted 80 xp in total, used up some heals and Fox died ( lol )). It was fun from a social point of view, and a valuable RP exercise, but my feeling of reward was blunted by the fact I'd nerfed everyone elses xp ( although they didn't complain of course, being 3 standout rpers ). What this means for me, is that I'll log in occasionally to get an RP fix, but for my gaming fix, go elsewhere for now. I'll come back in a few weeks and try out the system again, hopefully some more tweaks will have been done to make it a more viable gameplay system for my playstyle.

Have you truly been playing? This is basically the feedback I've gotten:

*right after the first changes went in*
Epic PC Players: Deider is Satan!
Deider: Have a little faith.

*3 days later after we tweaked the code*
Epic PC Players: I'm still not going to make enough XP! RP is fine, but I want to level!
Deider: Be patient, actually go test it out ingame.

*a few days later, after they actually logged in and played a bit*
Epic PC Players: Holy smokes, I'm getting more XP than before! I'm actually going to level! Is this right? Am I going to get banned?

Deider: Yes, it's right. No, you are not going to get banned.

People overall are making more xp than before, perhaps even too much. I don't need testimonials to know this, the code and the database don't lie. I knew this before we even announced the changes, I knew this despite the gloom-and-doom predictions by certain players. If making more xp than before doesn't suit your playstyle, then yes, by all means, feel free to play elsewhere for a few weeks.

[RCon]

People overall are making more xp than before, perhaps even too much. I don't need testimonials to know this, the code and the database don't lie. I knew this before we even announced the changes, I knew this despite the gloom-and-doom predictions by certain players. If making more xp than before doesn't suit your playstyle, then yes, by all means, feel free to play elsewhere for a few weeks.

Wait a minute, I should be making more XP than before? Something must be broken then, because I'm still getting zero like I was before! *reads fine print* Oh, this only applies to killing stuff? I guess I better leave the shop once in a while.

[chamalscuro]

Deider gets a thumbs-up from this direction. I'll admit to being a little dismayed at first, especially when getting 0xp for the easy stuff. But lately, when I've been fighting the kinda monsters that leaves my character battered, but alive (usually!)... I get low double digits in xp awards.

Wow!

That had always bothered me, just finishing a fight that was a real stretch for your character, and getting 2xp for your trouble. That's been fixed now. I'll gladly ignore the trivial monsters in exchange for real rewards for the tough stuff.

Thank you.

[Calzier]

I'll just through this in to the ring...

"Go fight other stuff" & "party up" are fine advice, but someone seems to have forgotten places like Kuras...

...having someone to party-up with is often a novelty up there (during regular play - I"m excluding prearranged stuff), and there aren't that many places to go (the only two really tough areas I know of are certain dp in seconds if I try to go solo)...

...since the system changed my (lvl 15) PC gets almost nothing from soloing, and when partied with a character > 10 lvls lower (tried it with a lvl 4 & a lvl 3) gets more or less what he did before...

Now - much as this might seem to be, this is not a complaint about the new XP system which to my mind encourages higher level (not even epic) characters to "act their age", and not go running around wacking goblins or rats or wimpy spiders just for the XP - the new system forces such characters to play in character much more, and to gain their XP through guiding and training low levellers, or engage in RP that is DM-rewarded.

I know most players play in the South, so what happens Up North shouldn't have an undue impact on global decisions... but please remember that some of us just don't have access to the higher CR monsters or lots of PCs to team up with...

This post is for the dedicated few that live in Kuras, and the wonderful DMs that make it worth staying, despite everything.

[TripleAught]

I'm guessing here but someone did say that the change in XP calculation was specifically to promt partying up.

Find yourself a meat shield and go whack things together

Yeah. Read the above piece again. It's easier said than done.

Also, to be honest... (and now I am getting very personal about my PC)... I can party-up, but I feel a bit of a fraud. If I party up with lower levels that I am unable to protect them when they need it, and anyway they generally have more fire-power than I do. When I party up with higher levels, I basically add very very little to the party. Sure I can track and search for traps, but I can't disable the harder ones or do locks, so I'm not as good a rogue. Fred really is an RP build and that's my only contribution to a party these days In play-testing (i.e. leveling-up a bit) he starts to come into his own when he goes epic, but I can't see that happing until 2008.

So, I'm going to quit this character and Avlis probably. Bye.

Before you jump ship entirely, I don't think that the point of being in a party is all about contributing to the slaughter. I'll agree that it's hard when you can't protect players of a lower level, I've felt that myself. But, taking them to an easier area should help solve that problem.

And when you are with a group of higher level players (or even equal level but more warrior-oriented) I have a character, rogue, that deals with the traps she can (there are a few doozies she can't) and then just goes stealthly when coming up against spawns that would drop her in 3 hits.
I'm around for healing, and of course, RP during the stretches of exploration that don't include monster killing.

I hope the impression that you have to be able to kill stuff better than anyone else or you don't deserve to ever join a party or ever get XP is not one being given to the Avlis community.

[TripleAught]

I'll just through this in to the ring...

"Go fight other stuff" & "party up" are fine advice, but someone seems to have forgotten places like Kuras...

...having someone to party-up with is often a novelty up there (during regular play - I"m excluding prearranged stuff), and there aren't that many places to go (the only two really tough areas I know of are certain dp in seconds if I try to go solo)...

...since the system changed my (lvl 15) PC gets almost nothing from soloing, and when partied with a character > 10 lvls lower (tried it with a lvl 4 & a lvl 3) gets more or less what he did before...

Now - much as this might seem to be, this is not a complaint about the new XP system which to my mind encourages higher level (not even epic) characters to "act their age", and not go running around wacking goblins or rats or wimpy spiders just for the XP - the new system forces such characters to play in character much more, and to gain their XP through guiding and training low levellers, or engage in RP that is DM-rewarded.

I know most players play in the South, so what happens Up North shouldn't have an undue impact on global decisions... but please remember that some of us just don't have access to the higher CR monsters or lots of PCs to team up with...

This post is for the dedicated few that live in Kuras, and the wonderful DMs that make it worth staying, despite everything.

I've been playing in Kuras for the last few days and haven't noticed a major drop in XP. In fact, it's gotten better for me, even when I'm alone. Send me a PM with where you are going and what areas you don't think you can handle. We can try to meet up IG and I'll give you some suggestions for things to do.

[Grunt]

Some observations...

An area I solo'd the other day gave me a total of 0xp (2 levels of a 5 level dungeon with increasing difficulty)
The same area after round 2 changes gave me a total of 68xp. 68xp is considerably less than the 2-300 I would get from a run in there before...but is much better than 0. I'd say most of what was "lost" there for XP were 1xp critters, with a few that were 5xp that are now 1-2xp.

I could have gone further in there, but then I'd run into more challenging spawns in groups of 5-10 at a time, who could kick my ass. So I think I'll go back with a party...
(Wait! a party! A group of adventurers near my level give or take a few, balanced for maximum survivability! I gotta write this shit down!)

I did notice that the drops were more varied, cooler stuff, and differing amounts, making the fact that little XP was gained not matter as much since there were gains elsewhere. Now to go back there with a party and see how the gold/item drop works out. (Aha there's that party thing again...hmmm... I think I'm on to something...)

[PlasmaJohn]

Apologies for the mis-information. I really was under the impression that one of the Team Members had (way in the past) doctored the CRs on a bunch of critters to stop people using examine window badly. I guess this is one of those urban-myths or rumours that takes on a life of its own.

Most adjustments made are to bring the critters in-line with the actual challenge that they represent (remember! Actual challenge is vs. a 'balanced' party of 4). There are even some examples where the adjustment is positive.

There are cases where special NPC's are reduced to (well) below their combat challenge. In these specific cases, they have a purpose other than combat. Kill them if it's IC, but don't expect to be rewarded for it. No random encounter has such an adjustment.
Well, maybe the oh noes, but those are a joke anyway (no additional spoilers please)

[Fifty]

The reason we sometimes ask questions, misunderstand things and make assumptions is that we are not privy to the long discussions that go on behind the scenes.

As a result it is easy for you to write something publicly that seems clear and covers all the bases, bearing in mind the context of what you have been discussing for weeks or longer, but which seems sudden to us and does not make much sense.

[Arandil]

As a casual player, I can't find groups that easily. The ones I do are usually 2-3 players, not large groups. I don't generally have that much time to play, but I've played through a couple of dungeons in groups, and gotten less than 100xp total for a couple of hours play. Are all these epics making all this xp doing something radically different? I know the database doesn't lie, so I'm not having a go here, I really want to know if pickup groups, of 3-4 players, are going to easily reachable dungeons, and raking in the xp. Maybe all the "right" dungeons are in M'Chek then.

As a casual player, I've noticed a steady decline in options over the past 6 months. The repeatable quests in the wilderness have been steadily nerfed, presumably because some people were exploiting them ( thank, whoever you are ). DM quests are not an option for me in general, as they're either the wrong timezone, or wrong times, or I don't have the time. RP is fine, but unless you're talking casual chat at elf gate, RP that advances your PC's goals takes as much time as levelling ( ok, not that much, but still, a lot ). So at the moment, with my playstyle and timezone, I can do the following...
- choose any dungeon on the wilderness server ( except the LRC? Dunno, not tried it recently ), and unless I have the time to assemble a large group with some lower level players, get 100xp odd for an hour or two
- do some crafting
- picnic at elf gate
- make a guild meeting every 2 months if i'm lucky

I used to make a bit of xp just from travelling in the wilderness and dealing with spawns there, and from dipping into dungeons occasionally. the xp I really miss though, is from exploring. I explored Deglos the other day for an hour and got 2xp I think.

I guess my playstyle is such a minority that it doesn't deserve consideration. You may have been getting feedback from players with more time than me I guess. I've probably not contributed much to the database xp table lately!
Sorry if that sounded antsy, I don't generally criticise the team because I know from experience what a tough job they have, and this isn't meant as having a go at you or your balls Deider. Its just that your telling me everythings rosy now, and my own experience ( admittedly limited to 2 dungeon crawls ), and feedback from other players who play like me, suggests they've given up on the idea of levelling. Are the epics who levelled under the new system over level 30? The system seems a lot better for those in the low to mid 20s.

Arandil

[bpottery]

Wait a minute, I should be making more XP than before? Something must be broken then, because I'm still getting zero like I was before! *reads fine print* Oh, this only applies to killing stuff? I guess I better leave the shop once in a while.

A "right-sized" adventure is in order very soon...

[Jazz]

Well, I can tell you this about Kuras: it is really hard to make XP now for higher level PC's. I think I only get XP in 2 areas. One is instant death. The other is okay, but will only get me little XP.
But I don't really mind

[Arandil]

Oh, and I will keep trying the new system, I'm not giving up yet, but I can only report on how I feel so far, which is vaguely disheartened atm.

Its an incredibly tricky job getting a system so that casual players can advance, while hardcore players can't exploit the very tools the casuals use TO advance. Most professional MMOs get it wrong ( until recently, where the trend is to allow reasonably fast progression ). Even under our old system I only levelled once every 4-6 months after lvl32/33. Under this new system I will not level again before I move onto other things. That is a discouraging thought and makes me think I may move on sooner than otherwise. I don't expect that to make any difference, but I felt the need to say it. As the majority of people seem to be happy with things, I think the new system has been a success.

[JollyOrc]

Also, to be honest... (and now I am getting very personal about my PC)... I can party-up, but I feel a bit of a fraud.

I've partyied up with my main PC countless times, and have contributed NOTHING to them, power wise.

Janur couldn't effectively heal, find or disarm traps, didn't have a weapon... basically he was just standing in the way all the time.

Still it was fun most of the time, as I was simply there for roleplay.


Hang in there, or if things are too frustrating, roll up an alt on one of these other fine CoPaP worlds to vent. If you want really frustrating: Catara doesn't give kill XP at all.

Yes, ALL NPCs, monsters, whatever give 0 XP when killing them there....

[Dirk Cutlass]

The changes may be better for some. I can certainly see how they will improve partying-up (and better balanced parties in particular). However, for my ad-hoc, limited-time, sometimes solo, playing style they basically do not work. For good or bad ... whatever, they basically mean that the way I've been playing for the last 3 years no longer provides for a fun and enjoyable game on Avlis.

[Jorik Ambrose]

Come to Australia Dirk and see what the lack of partying options is really like

I am sure it will be fixed for the majority and honestly, those of us not really used to being able to party due to IC choices and lowly populated timezones will survive.

I suggest taking a break, and coming back and seeing what it is like. I know the team is doing their best and all will work out fine for the long term plan.

[kinerata]

Come to Australia Dirk and see what the lack of partying options is really like

I am sure it will be fixed for the majority and honestly, those of us not really used to being able to party due to IC choices and lowly populated timezones will survive.

I suggest taking a break, and coming back and seeing what it is like. I know the team is doing their best and all will work out fine for the long term plan.

+1

[pedsdmd]

I'd have to agree with Arandil so far. I have played once in Elysia solo and got about 70xp for 1.5 hrs of exporing.(lvl 23)

I partied up in the wilderness server yesterday and got about 250 xp for appx. 2 hrs and that is including about 100xp dm cookies.

Maybe I'm missing something but thats pretty brutal.

[Pathos Street]

People overall are making more xp than before, perhaps even too much.

Finally got to try out the new system... I got >50% of level 20 in one 2-hour outing, at a clip of 100+ XP per kill. And the level 30+ epics in the party got roughly the same amount of XP in that same outing. The party consisted of 2 >30's, 3 (or 4?) epics <30's, 1 lvl 19 and 1 mid teens.

The system works fine (perhaps even too well), you just need to go someplace a bit more challenging and use good party-based tactics. Not getting XP from pwning mercs and dire animals daily will balance out if you go on a party expedition to someplace tough once a month. This change counteracts the previously-raised concern that epics had to powergame "effortless" stuff all day long to even level, at the expense of RP. Now you don't... and can't.

Great work, Deider/team.

[downsystem]

Well their is always the option of looking for all the fed ex quest avlis has and getting experiance that way in your limited time. Their is quit a lot of them out thier.