New XP System and CR

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:09 pm

Sorry, for yet another question on this...

How does the new XP system (or the old one for that matter) take into account NPCs that have had their CRs altered in the toolset, e.g. those really really hard NPCs that you see that appear to be "Effortless". Is their real CR that low (and therefore you don't get XP) or it is just a cosmetic thing for the "examine window" and their CR for XP calculation purposes takes it into account properly?

Just curious.

Thanks.

PlasmaJohn · Post by **PlasmaJohn** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:30 pm

The API gives us no way to distinguish between adjusted and unadjusted CR.

GodPole · Post by **GodPole** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:36 pm

Would the XP be calculated from the adjusted or the unadjusted CR?

Thanks.

Vroshgrak · Post by **Vroshgrak** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:18 pm

adjusted. Whatever CR the creature is in game is the CR the XP is based on. It can't read the toolset :-\. Unless we (script monkey) made it read a database file that was just a list of the pre-modded CR ratings, and calculated from that, but I have no idea how feasible that is, or why I would suggest it, if it is even possible.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:32 am

So, what you are saying is that all those adjusted NPCs that are brutally hard but read as "Effortless" are actually going to give 0 xp now?

Is that right?

Seems like they were made "Effortless" to stop people from benefiting from the "examine" window, but as a result it alters the XP system even further.

[EDIT: removed word "screwed up" as it was inflamatory. Sorry]

Marleh · Post by **Marleh** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:45 am

*makes sure to check which forum this is in before posting*

Well, that all depends on your lvl, and the lvl of the creature you're examining. If it is only 6 lvls below yours, then it is going to show as effortless, but it will still give you xp since the new xp system extends to 10 lvls above and below yours.

In addition to that, if you have any lower lvl characters in party with you, then the average lvl of the party will drop a bit, so even if that baddie is 10 lvls below yours, it might not be 10 lvls below the average of the party, and you may then get some xp.

Then there are Deider's new changes, which are not live on all servers yet.

Deider · Post by **Deider** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:50 am

Dirk Cutlass wrote:Is that right?

No, it is incorrect.

Seems like they were made "Effortless" to stop people from benefiting from the "examine" window, but as a result it screws up the XP system even further.

As always Dirk, thanks for the kind words.

The 'screwed up the XP system' Janitor

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:53 am

Marleh wrote:*makes sure to check which forum this is in before posting*

Well, that all depends on your lvl, and the lvl of the creature you're examining. If it is only 6 lvls below yours, then it is going to show as effortless, but it will still give you xp since the new xp system extends to 10 lvls above and below yours.

In addition to that, if you have any lower lvl characters in party with you, then the average lvl of the party will drop a bit, so even if that baddie is 10 lvls below yours, it might not be 10 lvls below the average of the party, and you may then get some xp.

Then there are Deider's new changes, which are not live on all servers yet.

OK, this is now General Discussion it seems. Anyway, the above point by Marleh does not affect my question.

It is known that some creatures have had their CR ratings "doctored" in the toolset so that people don't benefit from the "examine window", i.e. they are really CR impossible creatures to me, but have had their CRs modified in the toolset so they look Easy or Effortless or whatever. These creatures should be giving XP, but they will not now because of the "cosmetic" changes to their CR. That was my point.

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:54 am

I think what he is saying is that the two systems do not jive well together.

The new XP system works great! The cosmetic CR's work great! The two of them together? It's not exactly Ebony and Ivory, here... More like Sunny and Cher or Ike and Tina.

Either way, I don't think this is directed at anyone other than the situation at hand, which does present some problems. Like all of us, I am sure Dirk is looking forward to future tweaks and adjustments and the pletora of possibilities the future holds!

Deider · Post by **Deider** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:01 am

Wacky idea: if you don't feel the xp is worth the effort, don't fight them.

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:10 am

onetwothreefivesevnineten! *deep breath*

Ohmmmmmm chaprah....

Aerill · Post by **Aerill** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:54 am

If I understand it right I think that the latest change to the xp code is as perfect as it can get. The new system will still award some xp for anything remotely dangerous to high level characters. The only exceptions are some of the stock Bioware creatures with very low CR (below 10) like the Dwarven Mercenaries. But I am sure that their spawns will be eventually simply replaced.

JollyOrc · Post by **JollyOrc** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:05 am

Deider wrote:The 'screwed up the XP system' Janitor

D-Man, you know I love ya. And I am reasonably sure that none of the good folks here want to put you down. Seriously, we appreciate the work you did (and do). We just not always understand it.

This thread is just trying to understand how the system works, as apparently the first summary that was posted created a few "gray areas".

I'm the first to say that I have absolutely no idea what the new system really exactly does, nor what it's supposed to achieve.

But I think I understood things a little bit from that one explanatory post:

The list of facts that JollyOrc is so bold think he grasped
1) XPs that are given out based on CR of the creature.
2) The closer the CR of a creature you kill is to your own / your party CR, the more likely it is that you'll get XP from it.
3) If the CR is far lower than your own, you won't get XP.
4) Sometimes, area / creature builders artificially lower the CR of a creature dramatically.

Based on this, I (and apparently KaiRal and Dirk too) could draw some conclusions

The list of wacky conclusions JollyOrc came up with after drinking too much coffee:

a) If a builder lowers a creatures CR to make it look effortless while it isn't effortless at all, high level PCs may be barely able to defeat them, but won't get XP out of this.
b) this may be intended, as these creatures shouldn't be fought the normal way at all
c) this could be a silly error, just because these creatures haven't been adjusted to the new system yet
d) this is a roleplaying server, not a place where you get XP for killing stuff dammit!

Aerill · Post by **Aerill** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:31 am

JollyOrc wrote:And I am reasonably sure that none of the good folks here want to put you down. Seriously, we appreciate the work you did (and do). We just not always understand it.

Yep, yep. I think the majority of problems have come from misunderstanding and miscommunication, and a few unexpected consequences from the change which a lot of people, including myself, initially took as intended and which I am now sure are going to be fixed, if not already have been (I have had no chance to test the latest update to xp code yet). Just we players tend to be panicky creatures.

But I am sure most of us appreciate your work, Deider. I know I do.

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:50 am

*stops chewing on the desk long enough to give a huge thumbs up and make sure nce again that his frustration is understood to be with the situation (as it stands/stood as he has also not been able to experament with the lastest tweaks) and not the people doing massive ammounts of hard and very, very appreciated work*
You are now, and always 'Da Man', D.

*goes back to chewing on the desk*

rshampshire · Post by **rshampshire** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:57 am

The new system is really good actually. I went on a 2 hour hike yesterday to explore a place I hadn't been before but also to see how the new system worked.

My PC is level 15 and I was a little suprised that I was no longer getting any XP from Dire Spiders since I did used to get 4 - 7 XP from them but taking on things closer to my level gave 33 XP. I went into one area full of Dire Wolves. I got nothing from the Dire Wolves themselves but 30 - 33 from the Pack Leaders. 4 groups in total, over 130XP. I'm sure thats more thats more than I would have got prior to the change.

In total I gained between 600 and 800 XP last night. Sounds a little power gamey but this was purely exploration. I had no idea where I was going or what I would find.

Add to that the gold I picked up and it was a very productive little evening.

Of course this was alone... It would be interesting to re-do this in a party and see how that alters things.

Deider · Post by **Deider** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:15 pm

OK, time for a longer answer, since I know Dirk will not be satisfied with a simple'no.'

First off, I've had people biting my balls for the past week. I'm doing my best to not go off as I've done in the past. The following is humor, or as Dirk and those island weirdos say humour, so take it as such.

Second, if you have a complaint, just make it. No need to hide it behind a question and an insinuation. The team is not composed of morons - well, Wombat is kind of 'special,' but let's not hold that against him. This is not Jeopardy! - criticism need not be in the form of a question.

And before I go further, please, for the love of god, don't turn this into a discussion about the Examine function. That horse has long since gone to the glue factory. Actually, on second thought, please do - hijack away. Anything to give my scrotum a breather.

When a builder has artificially lowered a CR to something ludicrously low (like 1), it's NOT because he wants to mask the toughness of a creature, as was assumed.

[hijack]Please, everybody, stop doing that, making an assumption and stating it as the god's honest truth, otherwise known as "Fuzzing the facts," named after a player who does it often. His name will be withFuzzed to proFuzz the innoFuzz. Instead of correcting such misinformation on the boards, I could be fixing bugs right now. I Fuzz you not.[/hijack]

Now, on with the show.

When a builder has artificially lowered a CR to something ludicrously low, like CR1, it's because he doesn't want you to get XP from it. Why not? Usually it's because it's a creature he doesn't want you to go around killing for XP, like Fanos, Jerto, etc. Yeah, you can kill these guys if you want - we don't make them plot so that you can - but if they were worth XP, we'd get <insert banned player> going around culling them. The same used to be the case for guards, until some servers starting enhancing their AI so they'd call for reinforcements and such. If you are fighting a 'standard' dungeon creature and the CR has been tweaked ludicrously low, then the builder was just plain being sadistic.

Now, about the new XP system and it 'further buggering' this 'problem.'

In the old system, if an epic PC killed a creature below a certain CR, he got 1xp. In the new system, all that's been changed in this regard is that certain CR (it's been raised) and the xp given (0).

In the old system, if you kill a creature above that certain CR, you got at least 1d4+1 xp. That was a problem, because epics were farming certain low CR dungeons built for lowbies. I'm not talking about those 'hated PGers', I'm talking respected members of the community. Groups of epics have actually kicked lowbies out of these dungeons so they could farm/camp. To say this was a problem is an understatement. Anyway, under the new system you now get at least "a token amount of XP."

My point: the 'doctored CR' issue is not an issue at all, because in both the old way and the new way you got jack all for xp. The old way, you got 1d4+1 xp more than the builder wanted you to get anyway. The new way, you get either 0 or a token amount. Is this a huge difference? Is this worth distributing misinfo for? Is this worth me spending bug-fixing time posting this explanation?

Lastly, I am not going to go into specifics about the XP code. At this point, I'm surprised people aren't asking me to post the code (which I won't). Why not? Because I don't want to deal with posts like this:

My 23rd lvl fighter/SD/rules lawyer Dark Cutlery was fighting Greater Polyps in the Lost Rectal Caverns. I need 400xp to make 24th level, which is a big level for me, in an RP sense: I get the Epic 3E Rules Lore Feat and will be able to sign 7th level Writs, not to mention a point of INT which will further boost my Persuade the Team skill.

Anyway, I was only getting 5xp for every Greater Polyp. I back-calculated and figured that their CR must be 16. These creatures are very challenging for Dark, and he has Greater Lawyering. Shouldn't their CR be something more like 22?

Lastly... Dirk, if you want something to do, then go through ALL the mods, ALL of them, and make a list of these 'doctored' NPCs, and then PM it to me. I will personally go through the mods and check them. And that's not a load of Fuzz.

Alphonse · Post by **Alphonse** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:20 pm

*spits coffee all over keyboard*

Damn Deider.

Thats some nice work

loki70 · Post by **loki70** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:25 pm

Gives new meaning to the term "All warm and Fuzzy". Otherwise, if I haven't said so before, nice work.

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:26 pm

loki70 wrote:Gives new meaning to the term "All warm and Fuzzy". Otherwise, if I haven't said so before, nice work.

My eyes!! My eyes!! It burns my eyes!!

Thanks!

Jorik Ambrose · Post by **Jorik Ambrose** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:42 pm

Which island weirdos are you referring to Deider, and an attack at Wombat all in one..............?

Heronimous Fox · Post by **Heronimous Fox** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:42 pm

Fuzz gets all the plaudits again....

.....Deider.....

.....if one day you write a book, i want a signed copy......I'm especially looking forward to such expected titles such as 'Love Gnomes' 'Do you gargle my gundleskiltzen', etc etc, the follow up comic series, TV spin off .......

.

Many thanks for all your work (and everyone else on the team who is hidden under the radar at the minute

) and for putting up with our disjointed and sometimes miss directed feedback.

JollyOrc · Post by **JollyOrc** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:45 pm

Deider wrote:When a builder has artificially lowered a CR to something ludicrously low, like CR1, it's because he doesn't want you to get XP from it.

perfect reason that.

If you are fighting a 'standard' dungeon creature and the CR has been tweaked ludicrously low, then the builder was just plain being sadistic.

now, isn't that an even better reason?

kazlaan · Post by **kazlaan** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:04 pm

that is the bit I love most....

Deider wrote:
My 23rd lvl fighter/SD/rules lawyer Dark Cutlery was fighting Greater Polyps in the Lost Rectal Caverns. I need 400xp to make 24th level, which is a big level for me, in an RP sense: I get the Epic 3E Rules Lore Feat and will be able to sign 7th level Writs, not to mention a point of INT which will further boost my Persuade the Team skill.

Anyway, I was only getting 5xp for every Greater Polyp. I back-calculated and figured that their CR must be 16. These creatures are very challenging for Dark, and he has Greater Lawyering. Shouldn't their CR be something more like 22?

..and about being "sadistic":

If a DM is allowed to be that way it should be perfectly fine for the builders as well

LOL

Thanks Deider for work and obviously for the rest of the team as well...

Deider · Post by **Deider** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:52 pm

*bump*

For Dirk, so he can find this easily - noticed your idea in the Player Idea Box, the response has been pre-written above.