Knockdown

[Fire Monkey]

Quote:
for all the feats and levels it takes to get those puny increases it aint worth it IMO


I am going to disagree here. While it's true that the benefits of taking more than seven weaponmaster levels are argueable (even though getting up to +6 to hit with your weapon of choice with 28 weaponmaster levels is not a small benefit) and that Ki Damage is worthless, Increased Multiplier and Ki Critical aren't puny increases. You just need to take a look at what certain Avlissian weaponmasters can do: 100+ damage with a katana? So much for a puny increase.

Any fighter can get higher than that +6 to hit just by increasing his strength or taking some feats...AND he gets plus to damage as well.

I really don't see your point at all. You are failing to see that any weaponmaster can take exactly the same feats with bonuses to hit and increase his strength exactly the same way than a fighter can. Remember that Great STR is not in the bonus feats list for neither fighters nor weaponmasters.

Take these two examples, two humans who started with STR 18, will increase their STR whenever they can and will take Great STR VII (as many as any character can get). Both will take Weapon focus, Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Prowess. But one will be a Fighter 40 and the other will be a Fighter 10 Weaponmaster 30

The fighter will have an AB of 46 = 20 bab + 10 epic ab + 12 STR + 1 weapon focus + 2 epic weapon focus + 1 epic prowess.
The weaponmaster will have an AB of 52 since he can take the same feats than the fighter with his epic bonus feats and also gets the benefits of Superior Weapon Focus and Epic Superior Weapon Focus.

The only advantage the fighter would have is +4 to damage from Epic Weapon Specialization, which is something than the weaponmaster can get with one more fighter level without giving up anything whatsoever. In fact, the "uberbuild" here is Fighter 12 Weaponmaster 28: such a build gets 9 bonus feats less than a pure Fighter 40 but in exchange he'll have +6 to hit, Increased Multiplier and Ki Critical. Both would deal exactly the same damage, except on a critical hit, when the weaponmaster's Increased Multiplier would kick in, not to mention that he'd also be critting more often thanks to Ki Critical. I am not saying that one is better than the other since that's a matter of preference but each of them offers different advantages and disadvantages and the weaponmaster isn't by any means underpowered here. In fact, i daresay that in a one on one the weaponmaster would beat the crap out of the fighter most of the time.

EDIT: And anyway, epic Weaponmasters is not even what we were talking about. I'll quote myself:

You just need to take a look at what certain Avlissian weaponmasters can do: 100+ damage with a katana? So much for a puny increase.

Yikes! Who would have thought anyone with such a command of the stats could have ended up playing such a M'Chekan pansy

[Urizen]

A cha-based straight up fighter in charge of Alpha was a bad move. Next time we front the devcritting monk palemaster.

[Midknight]

Actually, I think it's pretty lame that you can't do anything while on your back. It's not a bad defensive position, and can be a good (though not ideal, of course) offensive position if not fighting with a weapon. Also, I don't see why you couldn't use wands, rods, or potions.

This is more a result of the fact that Bioware doesn't want to code animations for prone, and then engineering a whole system of things you can and can't do while prone, etc.... almost as bad as a y-axis.

As for the weapon master debate, consider a maximum strike +3 scythe on a character with 20 strength.

(2d4 scythe + 7(5 strength, 1.5 for 2h) +3)*4
(18)*4 = 72 maximum damage.

A critical threat will occur 5% of the time without any additional feats; 1 out of 20. 10% with improved critical, 20% with keen and imp. crit.

On the other hand, a weapon master.

(2d4 scythe +7(5 strength, 1.5 for 2h) +3)*5
(18)*5 = 100 maximum damage.

Additionally, critical threat occurs 10% of the time without any additional feats; 20% with imp. crit.; and a whopping 40% with keen and imp. crit. That's 2/5 attacks. And if you strike for four or five attacks a round...

The weapon master is almost always guarranteed a critical, due to his high crit rate as well as the BAB reasons outlined above by Mort.

At lower levels and with weaker weapons, the weaponmaster only offers a slight edge in damage. However, the damage increases are exponential... a higher base damage pays off in huge dividends.

Now one of the disadvantageis the steep requirements. Consider however that none of the requirements are really that disadvantageous - all the feats required are useful, and most fighters take them anyway. Consider than a whirlwind attack has a base 10% chance for a critical hit on all monsters around. That's brutal damage.

As mort explains above, the feats you lose out on actually don't matter quite as much, due to the fact that there really aren't that many feats in NWN. After obligatory Wep. Spec., Power Attack, Cleave, Knockdown, then the weapon master feats, there aren't really that many specific feats left. Maybe Called Shot; but the other feats only marginally improve your fighter's performance.

The only "real" disadvantage of the weaponmaster is that it's very end-loaded - is really only viable for players planning to reach higher levels. In addition, the crit. rate is of course useless against undead and crit immunes, making it slightly less versatile, and finally it takes up one of the three class slots, and isn't optimized for tanking. That isn't to say it's not good at it; but other class mixes can do it better. (Barbarian X/Rogue 2/Ftr 1 comes to mind)

[Dirk Cutlass]

The weapon master is almost always guarranteed a critical, due to his high crit rate as well as the BAB reasons outlined above by Mort.

I have a few exceptions with this.

Firstly, why does everyone assume that a Weapon Master is going to go for the high threat-range weapons (Scimitars, Rapiers, etc.). Some of us prefer the high multiplier weapons. Which means we do not crit all the time, although when we do it is a big hit, particularly if STR based and double-handed.

Secondly, as AC of opponents get bigger then the chance of landing a crit gets smaller and smaller. E.g. suppose I need an 18 to hit, even though the WM might have a crit range of 14-20 or something, you still need an 18, therefore that extra threat range is wasted. As AC of opponents gets higher and higher, then the crit becomes a rarity unfortunately. Many high level spawns, and almost all DM high level spawns have ACs in the 50s your high-level WM is only going to hit that when rolling a 20 or thereabouts, and so criticals are going to be (1/20)*(1/20) = 0.25% .. not a big number is it.

Finally, there are a lot of things out there that are crit imune: undead, golems, elementals. Crits are no good against these alas.

[Midknight]

Firstly, why does everyone assume that a Weapon Master is going to go for the high threat-range weapons (Scimitars, Rapiers, etc.). Some of us prefer the high multiplier weapons. Which means we do not crit all the time, although when we do it is a big hit, particularly if STR based and double-handed.

That's actually why I chose the scythe example - 5% normal crit rate. A weapon master properly kitted out can get a 40% crit. rate, with a whopping 5x multiplier. With a rapier, that would be more like 80% crit. rate.

Secondly, as AC of opponents get bigger then the chance of landing a crit gets smaller and smaller.

True, that is a good point, as well as the point about crit immunes which i addressed above; no class is going to be perfect after all, and each has it's own weaknesses. Still, the weapon master, at least in NWN, is far from handicapped without his crit. rate, he just becomes... ordinary.

[Dirk Cutlass]

That's actually why I chose the scythe example - 5% normal crit rate. A weapon master properly kitted out can get a 40% crit. rate, with a whopping 5x multiplier. With a rapier, that would be more like 80% crit. rate..

Sorry.. 40% I don't understand. where are these numbers coming from?

A war hammer or scythe: Normally crits on 20 (that's 5%). Improved Crit gives you 19-20. WM Ki Critical (or whatever its called) gives you 17-20, that's 20%.

I don't know where 80% comes from either, I think the best you can get is 50%, i.e. 11-20 is it ... I can't recall.

Also, these % are fairly meaningless anyway. The only mean something if you are hitting something with low AC, so basically you hit on your full crit range. To say that a scimitar Wm hits a crit 80% of the time is just plain incorrect and misleading, especially when you consider the reduced AB for your other attacks per round.

EDIT: Ah, OK - I just realised you're probably including Keen egde. Which is only available to slashing weapons. Hmm... does that double the range or just add 2?

True, that is a good point, as well as the point about crit immunes which i addressed above; no class is going to be perfect after all, and each has it's own weaknesses. Still, the weapon master, at least in NWN, is far from handicapped without his crit. rate, he just becomes... ordinary.

Yes, no argument from me there. I am more than happy with my 20% crit rate