Grief

[Yau]

First of all, one can kill without DPing.

Is this something new I've missed?

A good time to point out that -4hp =! dead.

Being in the bleeding script means you are unconscious and dying, not dead, Yau.

i knew that but what i mean by killing without DPing, is beating them down to bleeding stage and then allowing them to get healed back or something.

[eggbert]

0 to -9 HPs is critically wounded and will highly likely die without medical intervention.

More importantly, do they hear me talking to them and warning them not to mess with my charachter in the future. Sure they're in pain, bleeding, fear of death, blah, blah, blah. But do they hear my witty dialog? That's really the important part, isn't it?

[Dralix]

0 to -9 HPs is critically wounded and will highly likely die without medical intervention.

More importantly, do they hear me talking to them and warning them not to mess with my charachter in the future. Sure they're in pain, bleeding, fear of death, blah, blah, blah. But do they hear my witty dialog? That's really the important part, isn't it?

In bleeding, you are blind and deaf.

[Dralix]

what im trying to say is CvC is okay when both parties intend to go into it or expect it as a major possiblity.

since people insulting (alot) are usually trying to provoke the player to CvC. when thats the case well its their own fault.

Correction. Insulting someone (a lot) is initiating CvC. CvC does not start with combat.

[Yau]

what im trying to say is CvC is okay when both parties intend to go into it or expect it as a major possiblity.

since people insulting (alot) are usually trying to provoke the player to CvC. when thats the case well its their own fault.

Correction. Insulting someone (a lot) is initiating CvC. CvC does not start with combat.

okay my mistake, whats the correct word for combat using nwn engine? i always assumed CvC or PvP meant that. because thats what i mean

[Aloro]

Good post, Kat.

Oh, and by the way, 3 out of 4 griefing complaints cause the Team grief. We have to investigate each and every one of these complaints, and then make the best and most fair decision we can based on (usually) limited information. Not uncommonly, one party gets terribly upset at this and complains vociferously in public or in private, making everyone on the Team frustrated that we're forced to deal with that stuff. We'd rather play and have fun, you know. We're not your mommies, and though we hope everyone will play nice, we're not going to kiss your booboos and make them better.

So stop griefing us, dammit!

- Aloro

[Hert Snyder]

*sends yet another IRC griefing report to staff@avlis.org*


Subject: They're such meanies in there! Owie my pride! Ow ow!

Body: *pastes 700 lines of unformatted IRC*

-spool32

[VETT SCALES L7]

I know the incident in question. I was there. There were not 4 epic l;evel people beating on this person. There was rp involved.

Try getting the whole story before taking a side and calling grief. Or ask the two other players that were with this 'griefed' individual what happened rather than relying on a single persons narrow and rather inaccurate view.

[Sickocrow]

0 to -9 HPs is critically wounded and will highly likely die without medical intervention.

More importantly, do they hear me talking to them and warning them not to mess with my charachter in the future. Sure they're in pain, bleeding, fear of death, blah, blah, blah. But do they hear my witty dialog? That's really the important part, isn't it?

In bleeding, you are blind and deaf.

[GodPole]

So....ARE there a formal set of rules that still apply detailing just what kind of CvC is allowed and how it must be done?
The current ones reference the war and don't appear to apply anymore.

Has the team come up with any kind of CvC clarification so frivolous griefing complaints aren't filed?

-GodPole

[eggbert]

I know the incident in question. I was there. There were not 4 epic l;evel people beating on this person. There was rp involved.

Try getting the whole story before taking a side and calling grief. Or ask the two other players that were with this 'griefed' individual what happened rather than relying on a single persons narrow and rather inaccurate view.

If anyone would like to speak to me about it, since I was there, too, I'd happily tell you about it as I wouldn't want Vett to get all the glory of responding to uninformed drivel. Just give me a minute to clear out my inbox. Shoot. The Dock Prostitute griefs me more than this guy was griefed.

Aloro, is it really only 3 of 4? Would have guessed it'd be higher.

[Katroine]

So....ARE there a formal set of rules that still apply detailing just what kind of CvC is allowed and how it must be done?
The current ones reference the war and don't appear to apply anymore.

Has the team come up with any kind of CvC clarification so frivolous griefing complaints aren't filed?

-GodPole

CvC forum has an updated list with rules and gentleman agreement stuff.
It's sticky.

Here.

[Vipact]

There are a lot of insightful statements written in this thread. Like Orl said, there is a popular OOC culture that accounts for various elements that new players (not characters) are exposed to. I will also say without a supporting argument that the evolving OOC culture is more... how do I say it… rated PG and Cartoony than the earlier days of Avlis; and I don’t mean the lack of using explicit words or a nudity rating. Of course, there are a lot of factors that go into this dynamic: common “humanity”, the size of the world, the plethora of different reasons people are attracted to the persistent world, aversion to competition, following trends out of perceived punishment, and so forth. In the end, it is not a matter of who is right or who is wrong, but following a system that everyone can have fun with. That is the reason we are here, right?

Rather than saying what someone else should do, I will mention that I have enjoyed playing on Avlis for over two years now and have never felt the need to file a ‘grief’ing complaint. After all, my character did not start uber and I do play low-level alts from time to time so I have been in your shoes.

The one thing I keep in mind is that we are all here to have fun in playing the game as a hobby or a creative outlet. I like to think it as simple as that. In addition, I have faith in my ability to reason or converse with another player under this idea that everyone is here to have fun. The situation where I see contacting the team a viable path, personally, is when there is a disjointed situation which ends in a prolonged helpless victim against bully scenario and there is need to have outside help as the options are exhausted. For example, I one time logged on to the server into a CvC situation, and I was confused to say the least. However, one of the bandit characters recognized my character and saw him as a threat, then immediately forceful handed him without any word (and initially not even on my screen), and flame arrowed him to death in his helpless state that had me doing a naked run north to Northern T’Nanshi. I am sure someone may yell grief here right away, but that is really aside from the point. One mistake people make is thinking that everyone is going to be experts in CvC (and roleplaying) situations right of the back, in fact, veterans make mistakes. In any case, I gave the player an inquisitive yet friendly tell, and the product of that situation ended in laughs and in great and memorable IC skirmishes.

What pushed me into writing are the comments saying that deathplaneing another character should be “all” characters last choice to never be used, and that all character hostilities should be reenacted beforehand in tells or watched by a babysitting DM that is indicative of the possibly newer perception of the OOC culture. And for this, I feel sorry for the gimped characters who work off terror with good IC reasons, as many great avlis moments have occurred otherwise. Any character can run around in their own world in their own bubble in cartoon land while neglecting the effects it has on other characters, which one party is bout to get frustrated. Respond to the game in game; voice your concerns OOCly if need be; have fun with other people. Doing otherwise limits the possibilities of the game and everyone’s fun.

[Kharkiv]

I know the incident in question. I was there. There were not 4 epic l;evel people beating on this person. There was rp involved.

Try getting the whole story before taking a side and calling grief. Or ask the two other players that were with this 'griefed' individual what happened rather than relying on a single persons narrow and rather inaccurate view.

Hmm... Ill talk as the guy that was beat on, since I dont want anyone to speak for me either. first off, I did not even send a griref complaint in, but since some DM's approached me and asked me for a report of what happened, I sent them the conversation log of the incident and asked them to judge for themselves.

The rest of the night, I got in touch with my orders and handled it IC. [/u]

[Katroine]

There is no incident in question when I started this thread.
Sorry that someone(s) have pulled it into an incident report.

My rant wasn't aimed at anyone or any certain incident. It was a general thought that has been rolling around my brain for months.

I wrote this rant a while ago and didn't post it until today. I've gotten so many odd PMs since I posted this. It's just a thought I had. I've noticed a change and I commented on it.

[Ellowin]

I really like the original post. I think she's dead on. I haven't read all three pages of posts, skimmed them, but haven't properly read the whole mess.

But I wanted to point out one of MY favorite parts of the original post:

This is not directed at any one person or incident, nor is it more than my own personal opinion. I felt an urge to rant and well, I ranted.

then I thought I'd take the liberty of pointing out part of Kharkiv's post:

I did not even send a griref complaint in, but since some DM's approached me and asked me for a report of what happened, I sent them the conversation log of the incident and asked them to judge for themselves.

I wasn't there, didn't see it, know the PC it happened to ICly and was privy to the immediate aftermath. I know how it was handled ICly and couldn't care less how it was handled OOCly since it was left to the Team's wisdom how to handle it.

It's remarkable to me how you can take a piece of well written, well thought out, and good material and make it into the mess it's become.

*ducks for cover and finds the exit stage left*

[Gairus]

[/lurk]Whiny bitches don't need specific incidents, it's a state of being. [lurk]

OUCH! Of course not!

I mean the people who whine about being griefed... *shuts up*

[Katroine]

*swats Gairus*
I know you don't mean me!

[Arnimane]

Ed, a halforc bandit.

"What him say?"

[Tony Wazz]

I agree with some of this and disagree with some of this *shrugs*. I come here to have fun, and if someone makes my character having a bad day, fun for the player behind him, then cool! But if it is for the ego or pee pee stroking of ones self only, then there might be a deeper problem than Rules, Avlis or NWN in general. In these cases, I think such things should be reported and followed up on. THink about it people, THis kind of stuff makes people go "postal" in "RL".


Food for thought, and ya don't always have to eat what's on the menu. ( me either ).


Oh, I think several situations have come to light on this thread because it is posted with poor timing, and coinsides with these happenings. So, a few people might not know who you all play IC and might be gluing puzzle pieces together that may or may not fit.

[Kharkiv]

I come here to have fun, and if someone makes my character having a bad day, fun for the player behind him, then cool! But if it is for the ego or pee pee stroking of ones self only, then there might be a deeper problem than Rules

Tony, well said. I think Kat's post was great, but there are some things that just cross the line. I play for the enjoyment of the game, I have plenty of IC enemies and we've killed each other quite often. I think the easiest way not to make enemies ooc is to write them a simple [tell], to explain to them its nothing personal.

[icegard]

As one who, over a year, took part in the war, and is anxiously waiting for the fiefs to go up for another war, and who took part in 2 different law-enforcement organizations, I had a fair deal of CvC, and just want to say this:


While setting hostile before attacking, making sure that the other player is okay with it OOC, and etc. is all nice. Sometimes you don't have the time to do it, sometimes you forget to do it, and sometimes well, it would simply screw you up. They're good things to do before engaging into CvC, but not always necessary, and if someone did forget it, or didn't do it, it doesn't mean you got to run all over his rear and make an OOC war because of it.

The one, and most important thing when engaging into CvC, from my experience, is that AFTER it's over, AFTER everyone calmed down and settled down, AFTER the characters got away from each other, and when everyone can relax, then make sure that everyone understands what happened, why it happened, and make sure that OOC, everyone are cool with eachother.
It's nice to do it before, but we don't always get the luxury for it, but not doing it after is just asking for OOC hostilities and OOC hate for the most part. (unless it's what you signed up, like in the army. We all knew we'd engage against each other, and didn't need OOC communication about it for the most part. But even then, we still did it, and for the most part, we all had great fun, and OOC, get along pretty well, despite spending from a year to 3 years doing nothing but fighting each other every day )

From my experience, anyways.

[Dralix]

While setting hostile before attacking, making sure that the other player is okay with it OOC, and etc. is all nice. Sometimes you don't have the time to do it, sometimes you forget to do it, and sometimes well, it would simply screw you up. They're good things to do before engaging into CvC, but not always necessary, and if someone did forget it, or didn't do it, it doesn't mean you got to run all over his rear and make an OOC war because of it.

No need for OOC wars, but setting hostile before attacking IS something you MUST do. Sure people forget sometimes, but setting hostile is more than "nice."

[Orleron]

As one who, over a year, took part in the war, and is anxiously waiting for the fiefs to go up for another war, and who took part in 2 different law-enforcement organizations, I had a fair deal of CvC, and just want to say this:


While setting hostile before attacking, making sure that the other player is okay with it OOC, and etc. is all nice. Sometimes you don't have the time to do it, sometimes you forget to do it, and sometimes well, it would simply screw you up. They're good things to do before engaging into CvC, but not always necessary, and if someone did forget it, or didn't do it, it doesn't mean you got to run all over his rear and make an OOC war because of it.

The one, and most important thing when engaging into CvC, from my experience, is that AFTER it's over, AFTER everyone calmed down and settled down, AFTER the characters got away from each other, and when everyone can relax, then make sure that everyone understands what happened, why it happened, and make sure that OOC, everyone are cool with eachother.
It's nice to do it before, but we don't always get the luxury for it, but not doing it after is just asking for OOC hostilities and OOC hate for the most part. (unless it's what you signed up, like in the army. We all knew we'd engage against each other, and didn't need OOC communication about it for the most part. But even then, we still did it, and for the most part, we all had great fun, and OOC, get along pretty well, despite spending from a year to 3 years doing nothing but fighting each other every day )

From my experience, anyways.

Well said.


To Tony Wazz's point, it's important to know something: The Avlis Team is not responsible for anyone's RL personal issues or mental illnesses. I say this in all seriousness, not to be a jerk. If you have mental issues in RL, honestly, we do not want to know about it. We go by the rules here, and everyone is equal under the rules. The rule says common sense is the rule. If you cannot abide by common sense, you are out, whether that's because you truly are a jerk or have some form of impaired sense nonetheless.

Normal people do not "go postal" over in-game things. People that "go postal" in RL over game things all have something wrong with them that has nothing to do with the game at the core. Normal people get angry, and normal people sometimes post griefing reports. That's all fine if it is done in a controlled and reasonable manner, using common sense.

For the people that "go postal" there is one option: BAN. We are not a therapy clinic. They don't pay me for that. I don't have the right degree for it either. If we can't handle your actions for whatever reason, you are out. Plain and simple.

[Kharkiv]

The one, and most important thing when engaging into CvC, from my experience, is that AFTER it's over, AFTER everyone calmed down and settled down, AFTER the characters got away from each other, and when everyone can relax, then make sure that everyone understands what happened, why it happened, and make sure that OOC, everyone are cool with eachother.

Well said and this is exactly the point I was going after.