Grief

[Katroine]

Grief.
Let’s talk about grief for a moment.

What is grief?

n.
1. Deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement.
2. A source of deep mental anguish.
3. Annoyance or frustration: His bad directions caused me grief.
4. Trouble or difficulty: the griefs of trying to meet a deadline.
5. Archaic. A grievance.

Pretty intense stuff. Deep mental anguish. Bereavement.
My grandfather passing caused me deep mental anguish. I felt grief. I grieved.

That’s completely rational.

Now let’s put this into perspective in the context of Avlis.
Lately, I’ve heard of a lot of accusations of griefing. Now, I am not saying they are all directed at me since I play a pretty decent, level headed kind of gal, but I know they have been made in the past.

Let’s be all hypothetical a moment here.

Let’s say you are walking down the road and you see some guy. You don’t like him because he is wearing hot pink. You call him a sissy, because that’s what your character would do. Pinky turns and kills you without flinching. You slowly bleed to death and think about the horrible task of completing your death quest, running back to your body doing the naked dash of shame, and praying no one loots you. You are stewing inside, because someone had the audacity to kill your character for just doing what your character does. They should be punished. But how?
They griefed me. My character was bullied by a higher level and they death planed me and left. I have been griefed and I want retribution!

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now then, anyone can see this is silly, right? I think so, but I’ve seen it often. Can words alone initiate an attack? Yes. Yes, they can. Should you accept that your words can incite someone to attack? Yes. Yes, you should.



Now then, let’s say you are out and you run into a private Ebony meeting. They ask you to leave so they can finish their business. You, instead pester them asking inane questions about why you should have to leave, what they are doing, and why can’t you stay, ad nauseam. One of the members turns you to stone and they continue on. You are stone, you are pissed, and you really need to itch your nose.

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now again, we can see this is silly. It’s all IC and it’s hardly catastrophic. You will be flesh again and all will be right. Should you accept that your actions could cause someone to attack you? Yes. Yes, you should.

(Using Ebony as an example of a dark and spooky group. I know that no one in Ebony would ever turn anyone into stone.)


Now then, you are out collecting flowers in the wildlands. You are a happy go lucky flower picker and nothing gets to you. You run into two PCs. They stop you and start bothering you by talking derogatory and saying horrid things. You ask them to leave you alone. They kill you instantly and send you nasty tells about what they are doing to your body and when you muster enough courage to go back to your body, it’s drylooted and they are still there and kill you again and then raise you before you can log off feeling completely awful about your night.

*sends formal complaint to the team*

Now, this is a little clearer to me. They would not leave you alone and killed you. Still not griefing. Drylooting you, still legal in the sense of the rules. Sending derogatory and horrid things to you and sending you tells about it then killing you and camping your body and raising you. Well, I am not on the team but I bet that’s a legitimate complaint.



Getting killed for mouthing off does not equal grief. Getting knocked to bleeding for your actions IC does not equal grief. Someone taking all the cotton before you does not equal grief. Someone running ahead of you in a dungeon and killing all the spawns does not equal grief.

What ever happened to taking things IC?

When things don’t go your way for whatever IC thing you did, don’t look for loopholes to get someone in trouble OOCly, find them IC and make some trouble. Seems these days everyone is too quick to pull the grief card to get out of accountability.

I’ve been killed probably a hundred times on Avlis. I’ve been killed by PCs countless times. I’ve never felt the need to file a grief complaint and if I ever do, I will be damned sure it was a clear case of grief, not IC actions leading to an IC response.

The line should not be that fine between what is and what is not grief.

This is not directed at any one person or incident, nor is it more than my own personal opinion. I felt an urge to rant and well, I ranted. It just seems to be the trend lately and it is making it hard to be IC at times, worrying about how someone is going to react and whether or not it will put you in hot water.

You call my character a whore, she will likely knock you on your ass. To think I would get added to some griefer watchlist for doing so troubles me.

/me turns off rant mode

[Nitro18]

The most calm, level-headed rant ever.

*politely golf-claps*

[Tharliss]

It's too good to be in the Rants section, although I understand why Kat put it here. To me, this should be made a sticky in the GD forum.

Great post and I understand completely.

People: Take some responsibility for your IC actions. 'Nuff said.

[tygermoon]

Tharliss-- you took the words right out of my mouth (I was writing this when you posted!). I agree that this should be a sticky on the GD forum. To think someone would send a letter to the Team saying essentially -- "Daaddyyy! She HIT me! " is little more than irritating whining. We're supposed to be adults playing a game by the rules, so that everyone can have fun.

I just hope that those whom this was meant for get the idea. But generally these are the folks who either a) don't read the forums, or b) are the "rules-lawyers" and whiners ( "I didn't do it! " "She made me!" )that can take the joy out of any game.

Love ya, Kat. Your common sense and level-headedness made this "rant" a pleasure to read. I applaud you.

[Kareth]

I have only made a report to the team twice - the first I was advised to because I was killed by a much more powerful PC with absolutly no knowledge of why it happened IC or OOC. Plus there was no role-playing involved in the attack. The character just walked past saw my character cast a few spells - instant death plane.

The second time was when two players had looted a friend of mine and this had been reported to me character (an EDF officer) - both players then repeatedly logged off as soon as we got near them to investigate the crime. These two were reported for logging to avoid IC consequences.

[Dralix]

(Using Ebony as an example of a dark and spooky group. I know that no one in Ebony would ever turn anyone into stone.)

Not when there's a perfectly good finger of death memorized ...

[AUman]

Not when there's a perfectly good finger of death memorized ...

[GodPole]

*applauds*

Well said!!

[Dralix]

Not when there's a perfectly good finger of death memorized ...

*shakes bony fist at Nikki*

[Tigg]

I don't know how it ties into griefing or not, but it's something to consider in the context of aggressive behavior in NWN- how amazing it is the way you may see people change their tune and go from bully to pacifist based on the color of the right-click CR, meanwhile claiming when confronted with a complaint that when they were in their aggressive stance it was nothing but the (highly inconsistent) RP of their character. That being the case, maybe there needs to be some limits on the extent to which lower-level characters can be the unwilling recipients of PK-type bullying. I don't know, I'm not a team member, it's just a thought and certainly not an observation that's based solely on Avlis. I do think that there are some limits here, though... I've never had the need to make a complaint so I admit I'm not fully up on what exactly constitutes a grief on Avlis.

Anyways, knowing how nice Gracie is, if somebody called her a 'whore' and they got killed then they undoubtedly deserved it. Good for you! I tend to think that most people would feel the way I do, too.

[Hert Snyder]

I'll repeat the main point here because I agree with it SO MUCH:


ACCOUNTABILITY
ACCOUNTABILITY
ACCOUNTABILITY


Additionally, I'd like to take this opportunity to applaud certain players in Mikona last night for NOT METAGAMING even when it was pretty damned tempting to do so. Well done, especially you, Mr. Got Pwned. I hope that accountability, and not griefing reports, will be the guiding theme for this little episode as it goes forward.

-spool32 / HERT

[Dralix]

Call me a cynic, but if people don't take accountability for their actions IRL, why should we believe they'll do so here?

The common theme of not taking responsibility for your actions pervades real life, not just Avlis.

[loki70]

It's too good to be in the Rants section, although I understand why Kat put it here. To me, this should be made a sticky in the GD forum.

Great post and I understand completely.

People: Take some responsibility for your IC actions. 'Nuff said.

Point is, yes, take responsibility for your IC actions. Both IC and OOC. Whacking someone, no excuse given that holds any weigh, more of a just cause, is griefing. Sorry, but one of the hallmarks of this server is the lack of PvP. That means beating down people cause you can, and taking all the fun out of the game, is griefing. Orl's definition, not Webster's. That also means that whacking someone without an OOC or IC explanation to them is also griefing. It is always the attacker's responsibility to ensure that both parties are still having fun. 'Nuff said.

[Naieth]

Very, very well said Kat. The calm way of writing down this problem makes it all the better.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for a Team Member to carefully read this in order to possbly sticky it in GD, like mentioned. Should fit.

[Demandred]

...if you wanna call, 4 epic level characters BOXING and attacking a 10-12 level character a RPing opportunity, and afterwards you ask the victim to "Take some responsibility for your IC actions", then I have nothing else to say here.

But hey, well done, I cannot reach that RPing level myself...

BTW the victim just walked there, so I suppose that dying for this crime is typical is some circles...


Well done!


Edit: And BTW, there are some rules that have to be followed anyway (tells, warnings etc...). NOONE is above those.

[Significant Owl]

A very good post, something that's been bothering me a lot too lately put down in the right words.



*Spots Naieth's signature*

GAH!

[Naieth]

*Spots Naieth's signature*

GAH!

I admid, it's bad. Bwahhahaa

[Kareth]

...if you wanna call, 4 epic level characters BOXING and attacking a 10-12 level character a RPing opportunity, and afterwards you ask the victim to "Take some responsibility for your IC actions", then I have nothing else to say here.

But hey, well done, I cannot reach that RPing level myself...

BTW the victim just walked there, so I suppose that dying for this crime is typical is some circles...


Well done!


Edit: And BTW, there are some rules that have to be followed anyway (tells, warnings etc...). NOONE is above those.

Not sure exactly what happened - but if someone was taken down without warning by four epics for just walking into an area then I would consider that griefing.

It might be totally IC, but sometimes we have to step away from what is IC to make sure that the game is fun for the others who play.

[Khaelindra]

It might be totally IC, but sometimes we have to step away from what is IC to make sure that the game is fun for the others who play.

Indeed, and i'd even say this overrides -ANY- other notion when playing a game together.

*points to sig*

[Katroine]

...if you wanna call, 4 epic level characters BOXING and attacking a 10-12 level character a RPing opportunity, and afterwards you ask the victim to "Take some responsibility for your IC actions", then I have nothing else to say here.

But hey, well done, I cannot reach that RPing level myself...

BTW the victim just walked there, so I suppose that dying for this crime is typical is some circles...


Well done!


Edit: And BTW, there are some rules that have to be followed anyway (tells, warnings etc...). NOONE is above those.

*scratches head*

I am not sure what you are talking about, actually.
But rant on.
Oh and if you have an issue with me, please feel free to address me privately and personally.
*points to PM button*

[WrathOG777]

I don't know how it ties into griefing or not, but it's something to consider in the context of aggressive behavior in NWN- how amazing it is the way you may see people change their tune and go from bully to pacifist based on the color of the right-click CR, meanwhile claiming when confronted with a complaint that when they were in their aggressive stance it was nothing but the (highly inconsistent) RP of their character. That being the case, maybe there needs to be some limits on the extent to which lower-level characters can be the unwilling recipients of PK-type bullying. I don't know, I'm not a team member, it's just a thought and certainly not an observation that's based solely on Avlis. I do think that there are some limits here, though... I've never had the need to make a complaint so I admit I'm not fully up on what exactly constitutes a grief on Avlis.

Anyways, knowing how nice Gracie is, if somebody called her a 'whore' and they got killed then they undoubtedly deserved it. Good for you! I tend to think that most people would feel the way I do, too.

there is a very valid reason that Higher lvl folks picking on lower lvl folks can never be called bad.

Anyone who is doing the right thing, and not metagameing... DOES NOT KNOW.

They have no fucking idea what lvl the other character is. The people this kind of rule would hurt are only the honest ones.


If you are talking about folks talking shit to a goblin, then hearing his name is Baal and shutting up then appologizeing, well that is IC. Goblins seem weak. Baal is famous.

Same would go for mistakenly treating Rhis like any other girly lizardman, Ed like a halforc bandit, or Sammy Valorian like an old man in a bathrobe.

[Khaelindra]

Ed like a halforc bandit

those bandits are much sexier than Ed...

[Kareth]

there is a very valid reason that Higher lvl folks picking on lower lvl folks can never be called bad.

Anyone who is doing the right thing, and not metagameing... DOES NOT KNOW.

They have no fucking idea what lvl the other character is. The people this kind of rule would hurt are only the honest ones.

There are plenty of instances where even the best players metagame (much of the CvC agreement involves metagaming) - and the reason players metagame is they realise that sometimes metagaming makes for a better game world then just blindly playing IC. I think when it comes to knocking down newbies or lowbies this is an instance when metagaming ISN'T such a bad thing.

IMO metagaming which results in a better game experience for other players is something that should be encouraged(such as helping newbies, agreeing actions with the player in tells before doing them) and is a world of difference from other forms of metagaming (such as using OOC experience to gain an IC advantage).

[FurrorNos]

It might be totally IC, but sometimes we have to step away from what is IC to make sure that the game is fun for the others who play.

Indeed, and i'd even say this overrides -ANY- other notion when playing a game together.

*points to sig*

when i first joined i read that sig and its been rule #1 for me since then.

I have never even seen player griefing occur in the whole time ive been here, and i suspect it is largely because the characters/players I have surrounded myself with also go with this policy (whether they know it or not).

[korak]

Bah!! Kraven is reporting Grace. He sat here and read this entire post and needed to be doing something else.

Nice post!