Touch attack / Saving throw, mutually exclusive?

[Emprod]

Just realized while frustrated with some Ferrell critters that I wasn't getting saves on effects of their special attacks at all. (salt demon confusion, acid beetle strength drain, etc).

Is that intentional, an engine limitation, or a slip? On things dealing physical damage it makes sense, but effects like confusion should give a save or am I looking at it skewed?

Just wondering. Cheers.

[Dirk Cutlass]

Touch Attacks: Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn?t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

Does expertise count towards AC for touch attacks?

[Serineth Swiftpaw]

This happened to me for a short time in the Beetle caves last night. There was no save, they just affected me. Very odd. I rested and carried on and it was ok. I've never noticed this before ((Elysia beetle caves)).

[szabot]

What about the attacker making a touch attack - what bonuses count? Is it just d20 plus STR modifier? Something else?

[Zyndro]

The stink beetle thing always effects my character automaticaly. There's never a save. It used to take SR into account (for whatever reason) but now it doesn't. The only way I've found to resist it now is with some mind attack immunity in effect.

[Hylia]

A lot of touch attacks don't allow saves (shadow fiend strength drain, to add one to the list). However, some definitely do (pale master's touch).

[Toman Nouwen]

Speaking of the bettle cave in Elysia, I've noticed that once I take of my Amulet of Lesser Health (immunity disease/poison), I'll start making saves again against the stink fog... Bug?

[Czarcasm]

What about the attacker making a touch attack - what bonuses count? Is it just d20 plus STR modifier? Something else?

From WotC 3.5E Rules (I don't think this changed between 3.0 and 3.5):

Touch Attacks: Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn?t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

Not sure if Bioware implemented this, but I see no reason why they would not. I don't think STR modifier counts since STR is normally used to get past armor.

[Emprod]

Hitting a touch attack is just like trying to punch something. Look at your unarmed attack bonus and that's it. (99% sure, correct me if wrong here)

Like Czarcasm says, you're only trying to touch, not penetrate the person (eww?). Ignore armor, deflection, shield, and natural bonuses. You're hitting 10AC + any DEX and dodge bonuses (+wis for monk I assume).

[mortzestus]

Touch attacks are actually modified by STR, even if the attacker has weapon finesse DEX won't be applied and STR will always be used (at least that's how it's supposed to work after the last changes that Bioware did in the code for touch attacks).

The AC used against touch attacks is 10 + DEX + dodge + deflection + WIS (if monk). Expertise is a dodge bonus so it should count.

[WrathOG777]

The confusion come from...

*There are spell like abilities.
Touch attack = no save.
Yes, it is standard for spells anyway, that if a touch attack is required then THAT is your only save.
Ex: vampiric touch or Shadows str sucking

*There are special attacks.
These are an attack, so like a sword with a magic effect, the effect is an addition to the attack. Thus it has a save.
Ex: 50% 2rd sleep on a sword. or vampire drain on hit

[Midknight]

Basically, you only add Dodge bonuses to your Armor class in a touch attack, while the attacker gets only his strength bonus, or Dex bonus, in the case of a ranged touch attack.

Expertise counts as a Dodge Bonus, so it works for touch attacks.

[szabot]

Does expertise work the other way around, too; i.e. when executing a touch attack? Or, to put it another way, does expertise keep working as usual when making a touch attack?

[Final Shinryuu]

There are two types of touch attacks.

Melee Touch Attack: Uses unarmed attack bonus, strength based.

Ranged Touch Attack: Uses Base Attack Bonus + Dexterity.

Touch attacks have to roll high enough to hit the target, minus the target's armor bonus, and natural armor bonuses.

That's all there is to it, folks.

A touch attack takes a standard action. You can't keep doing anything else when making one. IE, you leave expertise mode when you make the touch attack.

[mortzestus]

The AC used against touch attacks is 10 + DEX + dodge + deflection + WIS (if monk). Expertise is a dodge bonus so it should count.

As pointed out here.

[Aldinvineda]

Basically, you only add Dodge bonuses to your Armor class in a touch attack, ....
Expertise counts as a Dodge Bonus, so it works for touch attacks.

The AC used against touch attacks is 10 + DEX + dodge + deflection + WIS (if monk). Expertise is a dodge bonus so it should count.

Just to clarify.. your AC against a melee/ranged touch attack includes or doesn't include deflection bonus?

[Malathyre]

The stink beetle thing always effects my character automaticaly. There's never a save. It used to take SR into account (for whatever reason) but now it doesn't. The only way I've found to resist it now is with some mind attack immunity in effect.

Ok, that's really odd. I used to always get a save against it...and after autofail was turned off, it became MUCH less annoying. Unless I'm mistaken, this is a poison effect, too, but I'm not 100% sure of that.

[Dirk Cutlass]

The stink beetle thing always effects my character automaticaly. There's never a save. It used to take SR into account (for whatever reason) but now it doesn't. The only way I've found to resist it now is with some mind attack immunity in effect.

Actually... are you usually wearing a Lesser Amulet of Health?

There is/was a known Bioware bug with this, and if you have the immunity: disease/posion that that amulet gives you then you get an automatic fail on the daze effect.

[Rain&Clouds]

A lot of touch attacks don't allow saves (shadow fiend strength drain, to add one to the list). However, some definitely do (pale master's touch).

I'm pretty sure I've seen it miss... maybe it's just a very high DC?

[Aerill]

The stink beetle thing always effects my character automaticaly. There's never a save. It used to take SR into account (for whatever reason) but now it doesn't. The only way I've found to resist it now is with some mind attack immunity in effect.

Actually... are you usually wearing a Lesser Amulet of Health?

There is/was a known Bioware bug with this, and if you have the immunity: disease/posion that that amulet gives you then you get an automatic fail on the daze effect.

That's true. If you have the immunity it skips a save and automatically affects you. It's a bug.

[Espy]

In game terms, when you cast a melee touch spell you're casting it on yourself. When you hit an enemy, the spell discharges. For example, Shocking Grasp has a duration of "Until discharged" (I'm not sure if this is the case in NWN). Ranged touch attacks don't seek their target and their areas of effect are so small that some precision is required, so they behave like regular missile attacks. Contrast that to the magic missile, which is basically a ranged touch attack that seeks its target, or the lightning bolt or fireball, which cover large areas and don't need to be precisely aimed.

I can't really think up a general in-game reason for touch attacks not to have saves. It seems sensible to me that somebody hit by a Shocking Grasp should be able to shake off some of the effects (say, Fort. save for half damage). Somebody who manages to get out of the way of a lightning bolt or fireball should still feel the effects of heat/electricity passing close by. But the real-world game mechanics require that spells that need an attack roll generally not have a save, for balance purposes. Otherwise, touch attacks would suck and nobody would use them. Also, having a more realistic system would be far too complex, and this is just a game.

SP

[dougnoel]

Here's how it's supposed to work:

Melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks are required by some spells/special abilities. Usually, these effects do not allow a save. Occasionally, some effects do allow an additional save against their effects, but this is not the case with effects that do damage. The save is replaced by the target's ability to avoid the attack. So someone with a lot of armor becomes very vulnerable to touch attacks.

Str is the ability score used for melee touch attacks and Dex is the ability used for ranged touch attacks. This is added to the base attack bonus of the attacker, and in some cases, spells or special attacks add an additional bonus to hit. The target AC is called touch AC, and as mentioned includes only dodge and deflection bonuses. Dodge bonuses include (but are not limited to) Dex bonus, size bonus, racial AC bonuses vs. certain creatures, the Dodge feat, a Monk's Wis bonus to AC and the dodge AC bonuses granted by some items. Incidentally, dodge bonuses are the only kind of AC bonus that stack.

[Espy]

Do Zen Archery and Weapon Focus/Improved Critical feats apply to weaponlike ranged touch spells in NWN?

SP