Makeing a tough character.

[modigliani]

Want a tough character who can be the front line?

*points at Fifur BoulderShoulder*

Do that!

Damn straight. Went out with him and Elenya the other day and ho, boy! Couple of bard songs later we had cleared the cowmen.

*shakes head in admiration*

[mortzestus]

Well and good, but since Wrath doesn't want to be the best damage disher ever but quite the opposite, a damage soaker...

It's sad, it's very sad but Wrath, if you want a "tough" character continue as cleric and take improved expertise too. With your domains and the help of magic vestment you'll be as untouchable as it gets and that allows plenty of tactics to do with a party.

[Midknight]

Yea, I think you're better off going with cleric, personally. Other classes will dilute the survivability buffs the cleric class has.

[Pyracantha]

I wasn't pointing at Fifur because he can dish damage. I was pointing at him because, with 450+ hitpoints and probably an absurd fortitude save, he can outlast just about anything.

Expertise is great against melee. But when damage of all sorts is flowing in, nothing beats a boatload of hitpoints.

After fighting lizard clerics last night, and a certain dragon in Rockhome, I have much more respect for the kind of toughness that doesn't come from a spell or a bottle (and therefore can't be dispelled).

[WrathOG777]

Time has passed. I have learned more, played more, gotten more of a feel for Baal and where I want to go with him. One thing definately remains constant. The goal with Baal is to be tough as nails, no, tougher.

Getting farther along I am starting to consider the epic impact of choices.

To this end, with some verification, I have come to three paths that make one tougher in their own unique ways. What I am meaning is that I have come to three class choices that all make a cleric significantly tougher.

1) Staying cleric.
- a few, almost unworthy of mentioning, more spells from extra wisdom
- Very long buff durations
- Very hard to dispel

2) Rogue lvls.
- Tumble, +4 AC at 17 -> +8 at 37
- Evasion and later improved for hardiest vs traps and most damageing spells
- Spot/listen for protection from them pesky assasins and shadowdancers
- Roughly -1hp/lvl
- Tons of sneak attack!

3) Fighter lvls.
- Epic toughness from bonus feats and lots of it for an upwards of 200 more hitpoints.
- Disapline for superb protection against knockdown, disarm, called shot
- Disarm to reduce enemy damage
- Roughly +1hp/lvl
- 4th attack

[Anyamaur]

points in terror to tangle and nob
attack of the dolll icons!! AHHH

[liephus]

To this end, with some verification, I have come to three paths that make one tougher in their own unique ways. What I am meaning is that I have come to three class choices that all make a cleric significantly tougher.

There is also a fourth option (though it is quite similiar to #3):

4) Barbarian lvls.
- Damage Reduction (albeit not much)
- Discipline for superb protection against knockdown, disarm, called shot
- Roughly +2hp/lvl
- Rage for temporary HP bonus
- 4th attack

A note about Epic Toughness: I am pretty certain you won't be able to use your bonus fighter feats on it until you reach epic fighter level, so the first advantage you listed under Option 3 won't come in to play until you are level 30+.

[WrathOG777]

To this end, with some verification, I have come to three paths that make one tougher in their own unique ways. What I am meaning is that I have come to three class choices that all make a cleric significantly tougher.

There is also a fourth option (though it is quite similiar to #3):

4) Barbarian lvls.
- Damage Reduction (albeit not much)
- Discipline for superb protection against knockdown, disarm, called shot
- Roughly +2hp/lvl
- Rage for temporary HP bonus
- 4th attack

A note about Epic Toughness: I am pretty certain you won't be able to use your bonus fighter feats on it until you reach epic fighter level, so the first advantage you listed under Option 3 won't come in to play until you are level 30+.

I tested it. You CAN use your bonus feats on epic toughness even at lvl 5 in fighter. That is the only reason fighter even made the list. And the reason barbarian did not, because you do not get bonus feats as a barb. you get rage, and bonus rage HP only get you killed.

[liephus]

I tested it. You CAN use your bonus feats on epic toughness even at lvl 5 in fighter. That is the only reason fighter even made the list. And the reason barbarian did not, because you do not get bonus feats as a barb. you get rage, and bonus rage HP only get you killed.

I stand corrected.

In that case, let me present a revised/powergamed Option #4:

4) Barbarian Levels up to level 20, then fighter levels
- no XP penalty until after 21st level
- until level 21, gain +2 HP per level
- gain barbarian movement so you can race ahead of everyone in to combat
- level 21, take Epic Toughness twice (21st level feat, 1st level fighter feat)
- level 22, Epic Toughness (2nd level fighter feat)
- level 24, take Epic Toughness twice (24th level feat, 4th level fighter feat)

[WrathOG777]

I do like running fast. And it would be cool for RP to have baal rageing. That does sound very tempting.

[Beary666]

screw epic toughness, get Con up to 21 and grab epic DR. Go for like 32 barb fighter, fighter would be to grab some more combat feats. With a lvl 32 bard and epic DR 3, thats a total DR of 17/-, pump epic toughness and Wisdom after that, if you can grab Might rage, that with Greater rage gets you to the +12 cap for STR and CON, no need to bulls strength or Endurance since the rage will last decently long enough,

[WrathOG777]

Bonus feats will not let you take great Con 8( You can only get epic toughness. Plan #3 was taking the Con with character lvl feats and toughness with fighter feats.

so...
- level 21, Epic Toughness I (1st level fighter feat), Great Con I (21st level feat)
- level 22, Epic Toughness II (2nd level fighter feat)
- level 24, Epic Toughness III (4th level fighter feat), Great Con II (24th level feat)
etc... etc...

Plan #4 is looking favorable, was not something I thought of, considered, and fits Baal better than just going fighter. Roleplaying a rageing Baal was one of my thoughts along the way, Something I have been very tempted to do. I think this one goes a long way to adding flavor and reaching my toughest goblin ever goal.

Thank you, liephus.

Now I am still debateing what to do with those two feats. The winners are looking like...
- disarm and Imp disarm
or
- imp expertice and blind fighting

Every once in a while I keep haveing the gnawing feeling I should follow the advice of the offensive people and get...
- Power attack and cleave
or
- weapon focus and imp crit

[KenLie]

PST!

Every time you have chance to take great constitution instead of epic toughness -> take great constitution, why? because it is better... In the end, same HP, BUT better saves... and easier to get epic DR I & II & III as well...

Yep, and expertise is nice

[Pyracantha]

PST!

Every time you have chance to take great constitution instead of epic toughness -> take great constitution, why? because it is better... In the end, same HP, BUT better saves... and easier to get epic DR I & II & III as well...

Yep, and expertise is nice

Psst! "In the end"? How many level 40 characters do you know on Avlis?

[KenLie]

PST!

Every time you have chance to take great constitution instead of epic toughness -> take great constitution, why? because it is better... In the end, same HP, BUT better saves... and easier to get epic DR I & II & III as well...

Yep, and expertise is nice

Psst! "In the end"? How many level 40 characters do you know on Avlis?

Yeah, none (yet), but those epic DR's are so underrated... and they come via con...

[Starslayer_D]

Power attack and cleave I do recomend.

Adding some dmg to each hit against a foe you hit anyway is allways nice, and it helps dealing with DR.

And Cleave simply gives you an extra swing each time you kill a foe, wich adds up.

My current fighter on Abyss (very low item environement) has the following feats at lvl 12 (set up for WM):

Power attack, cleave, Dodge, Expertise, mobility, imp. critical greatsword, Specialisation greatsword, Spring Attack, Toughness, Weapon focus greatsword, Whirlwind Attack, Knockdown and Imp Knockdown.

Knockdown is primarely defensive, as it prevents counterattacks;
Toughness and high con give her some HP;
Expertise: A must (AC including plate and tower shield, +1 eauipment: 29). Quite a few foes hit that with ease. Contemplating Imp Expertise for that reason.
Power attack does help to deal with a Vrocks DR of 20, as with the 5 pts of powerattack, one deals 2d6 + 6 (Str) +1 weapon + 5 powerattack dmg, and gets through even without a critical.

Next feats to contemplate: Blindfight, Called shot, Imp Expertise
Imp Power attack I may conside when I reach levels above 20... before that, the BAB is too low to make hitting possible using it.

[Starslayer_D]

Power attack and cleave I do recomend.

Adding some dmg to each hit against a foe you hit anyway is allways nice, and it helps dealing with DR.

And Cleave simply gives you an extra swing each time you kill a foe, wich adds up.

My current fighter on Abyss (very low item environement) has the following feats at lvl 12 (set up for WM):

Power attack, cleave, Dodge, Expertise, mobility, imp. critical greatsword, Specialisation greatsword, Spring Attack, Toughness, Weapon focus greatsword, Whirlwind Attack, Knockdown and Imp Knockdown.

Knockdown is primarely defensive, as it prevents counterattacks;
Toughness and high con give her some HP;
Expertise: A must (AC including plate and tower shield, +1 eauipment: 29). Quite a few foes hit that with ease. Contemplating Imp Expertise for that reason.
Power attack does help to deal with a Vrocks DR of 20, as with the 5 pts of powerattack, one deals 2d6 + 6 (Str) +1 weapon + 5 powerattack dmg, and gets through even without a critical.

Next feats to contemplate: Blindfight, Called shot, Imp Expertise
Imp Power attack I may conside when I reach levels above 20... before that, the BAB is too low to make hitting possible using it.

[Aldinvineda]

Adding some dmg to each hit against a foe you hit anyway is allways nice, and it helps dealing with DR.

This DR refers to the big and bad nasties which you tend to encounter at what level? Won't a nice +3 weapon help bypass it? Or is the DR something like the DR you get with epic freats, soaking in any type of physical damage?

[Starslayer_D]

Abbyss404 = really low magic. A lvl 12 fighter encounters vrocks, and they have a DR of 20/+3...

now if you simply cannot trade for a +3 weapon, you need other ways to beat DR.

[Aldinvineda]

Abbyss404 = really low magic. A lvl 12 fighter encounters vrocks, and they have a DR of 20/+3...

now if you simply cannot trade for a +3 weapon, you need other ways to beat DR.

*makes a note to not venture into abyss until Bheem get's some good equipment and a few levels*

What's the meanest DR anyone's encountered on avlis... apart from any of the uber PC tanks ...30/+5? *shudders*

[Gordaan Of Garagos]

Now I am still debateing what to do with those two feats. The winners are looking like...
- disarm and Imp disarm
or
- imp expertice and blind fighting

Every once in a while I keep haveing the gnawing feeling I should follow the advice of the offensive people and get...
- Power attack and cleave
or
- weapon focus and imp crit

Imp expertise and blind fight, without a doubt.

Imp expertise will help you in those crappo situations when you want to stand fast and get on those heal kits... no attacks of opportunity or loss of your defensive stance. Great, eh? Stand there and heal heal heal.

Blind fight means you get to re-roll you 50% miss in darkness or against invisible opponents, and means you don't get the bonus to hit you from invis opponents, IIRC.

Cleave is fine vs piss weak Goblins etc, but what use is it really? 1 extra potential attack, and tactics will usually see you better than standing in a bundle of enemies... use terrain to choke them or limit the attackers, or ranged to pick some off. You also have summons to distract.

Weapon focus and imp crit are very nice, but your cleric spells give you better attack and damage bonuses.

G

[The hand04]

Blind fight means you get to re-roll you 50% miss in darkness or against invisible opponents, and means you don't get the bonus to hit you from invis opponents, IIRC.

Quick question regarding this subject. Will blind fight still work with the 50% concealment, even after your opponent has attacked and lost it's invisibility properties? If anybody has a clue, please reply.

[kombinat]

Blind fight means you get to re-roll you 50% miss in darkness or against invisible opponents, and means you don't get the bonus to hit you from invis opponents, IIRC.

Quick question regarding this subject. Will blind fight still work with the 50% concealment, even after your opponent has attacked and lost it's invisibility properties? If anybody has a clue, please reply.

Yes

[The hand04]

Thank you Kombinat...

[Enverex]

Basically it works against any form of concealment then?