Yikes! Alignment, dead horse!

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:05 am

Split from Kai'Rals thread, to spare him the hijack:

Xeo Bodacea wrote:
ooc I hope that people keep to thier alingments on this... LG LE LN etc.

Not possible, because the alignment system is so flawed. So, Xeo, is Isamu lawful or chaotic? If he is lawful - why does he break the laws of Elysia? If he is chaotic - why the hell does he respect the laws of Ferrell, and even publicaly admit it?

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:08 am

As for my part, I am playing well within my alignment.

I am Chaotic Good.

The way I see this, I have no respect for the law because it doesn't work. More drastic steps are needed, usually on a very personal level, so I take them as necessary to uphold the common good. If a Law is all that stands between me and that end, it's as good as broken.

This doesn't mean I don't want the laws to change.

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:15 am

KaiRal Windspar wrote:I am Chaotic Good.

The way I see this, I have no respect for the law because it doesn't work. More drastic steps are needed, usually on a very personal level, so I take them as necessary to uphold the common good. If a Law is all that stands between me and that end, it's as good as broken.

This doesn't mean I don't want the laws to change.

Yeah, the problem is, everyone should be chaotic. While playing a lawful character is possible, it would be very, very hard and I do not think I have ever seen it accomplished, with a probable exception of some OoG members. Everybody is lawful when he agrees with the local law. M'Chekians are lawful in Mikona but chaotic in T'Nanshi; Xeo is lawful in Ferrell but chaotic in Elysia, OoG are doing their best to be lawful everywhere since we do not yet have a Drotid server, thats part of the reason why everyone hates them. Malekites are lawful only inside of their temples.

A totaly lawful character could only be one without any morality (not = evil, no - without any personal sense of good and wrong) or one so scared he would always bend to the rules, never finding the coureage to oppose them.

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:20 am

Noooo.

I know LOTS of people who do not do the things they really, really want to because the 'Law' prohibits it, and they respect the law.

Classic literature is full of them. Javert, of Les Miserables, would be my personal favorite. But I like tripe...

Newer literature, IMHO, has seen a need in toays audience to indulge the 'beast', so you have heors that break and fall, and live through it, but this is not how it is all the time. If it was, half the police force of the US would be suspended or in jail for busting a cap in every criminal that took them to the edge.

Playing a Lawful character is absolutely possible, and I will prove it when this whole Gortog thing is settled.

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:22 am

KaiRal Windspar wrote:Playing a Lawful character is absolutely possible, and I will prove it when this whole Gortog thing is settled.

LOL, good luck. I am crossing my fingers for this, should be interesting

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:26 am

myzmar wrote:LOL, good luck. I am crossing my fingers for this, should be interesting

Do not underestimate my l33t g4m3r sk1LLzzz...

No, I thought long and hard about it. Honestly, I see Kai as having just ended his teen rebellion years with a bang.

Up to this point, he saw so much life ahead, and has very suddenly, and very drastically come to see he is not immortal.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:28 am

"Lawful" has very little to do with following actual societal laws, at least when you're talking about CONFLICTING nationalities. Sheesh...It's nice to take things literally, but I mean...seriously.

Lawful/Chaos has something to do with following laws, yes, but by definition a character who picks and chooses laws or ignores them at whim is CHAOTIC while someone who tries to uphold order in general is lawful...

So, let's not get into silly semantics about alignment.

srn · Post by **srn** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:29 am

I always throught Lawful meant they followed a Code of some sort - whether it's an external one (a nation's laws) or an internal one.

Lawful Evil characters tend to be the latter, I'd think - they have some honour, their word has value, but they might still murder people.

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:30 am

Nob wrote:So, let's not get into silly semantics about alignment.

The reason why I do it is... the chaotic points for stealing on Avlis, which I find lame

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:30 am

srn wrote:I always throught Lawful meant they followed a Code of some sort - whether it's an external one (a nation's laws) or an internal one.

Yup, exactly my understanding. And this should have strictly nothing to do with stealing. My personal code can say one should only steal on Friday's

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:33 am

Maybe a re-reading of the Alignments from the Web site would be helpful.

portal.php?getpage=alignments1

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:36 am

j5hale3 wrote:Maybe a re-reading of the Alignments from the Web site would be helpful.

I once did it, and even posted a quote, but no one seemed to comment. Let me try it once more:

"An example of an underground Lawful Evil society is the Mafia."

1. Do you think the Mafia respects local laws?
2. Do you think the Mafia doesn't steal?

KaiRal Windspar · Post by **KaiRal Windspar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:39 am

Yep. I'm bowing out.

I was defending my stance on how I was playing my characters alignment. The rest of this has nothing to do with me.

Peace.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:42 am

Fuzz and I got in a huge yelling match about this in IRC the other day, in which I was saying the alignment system is very imperfect, and he absolutely insisted that the alignment system is very imperfect.

In conclusion, I firmly believe the alignment system is imperfect, but it's what we've got. Live with it.

Wyrmwing · Post by **Wyrmwing** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:51 am

Alignment is a guideline; not a straightjacket.

Sometimes the natural thing to do isn't in line with the letters on your character sheet. So? Just start altering your alignment when it happens too often.

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:56 am

Wyrmwing wrote:Sometimes the natural thing to do isn't in line with the letters on your character sheet. So? Just start altering your alignment when it happens too often.

I would love to, but how is my monk supposed to one day form a mafia of his own if he has to be lawful, due to game mechanics?

I proposed to totaly ignore the chaotic / lawful part of the alignment system, in other words a player would just choose what he needs for his class and none of his actions ingame would mechanicaly affect that (it could be changed only via a DM intervention). Simply because it is so flawed, and evil/good is much more reliable. Proof? I don't see anyone whinning someone is wrongly roleplaying his evil character, when someone is evil we all learn about it, sooner or later

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:34 am

well, if you take the whole quote.

"Lawful Evil societies are usually in the shadow of another group, and in that function they excel at undermining that authority in order to establish their own. On rare occasion Lawful Evil groups come into control of an area, and in that situation they are often chaotic seeming as they go about changing laws on whims to suit their goals. However, those goals are meticulously chosen and the roads to these objectives are well mapped out. Lawful Evil groups are ruled by the strongest individual politically. Politicking plays a large role in Lawful Evil groups, as a brash murderous attempt to the throne will be met by the backlash of the entire group without mercy. An example of an underground Lawful Evil society is the Mafia."

You can better see the relationship.

First of all, the Mafia is an organization, with all that it (an organization) entails. Sturcture, chain of command, etc. Now, an organization is made up of individuals, These individuals do not have to be LE. in fact, most of the lower ranks would be the chaotics who would be directly involved in the crimes that would in a game world cause a chaotic shift. But the Leadership ususally takes great pains to keep their hands clean legally. Bah.. it's 5am my time...

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:41 am

People change and so do alignments. Do what your character would do and your allignment will eventually follow.

CPU · Post by **CPU** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:43 pm

Nob wrote:"Lawful" has very little to do with following actual societal laws, at least when you're talking about CONFLICTING nationalities. Sheesh...It's nice to take things literally, but I mean...seriously.

Lawful/Chaos has something to do with following laws, yes, but by definition a character who picks and chooses laws or ignores them at whim is CHAOTIC while someone who tries to uphold order in general is lawful...

So, let's not get into silly semantics about alignment.

Xeo Bodacea wrote: ooc I hope that people keep to thier alingments on this... LG LE LN etc.

Besides, I read Xeo-ese, and I think the comment was a friendly reminder to those LG/LE/LN people to not smite him. He is under the literal interpretation that smiting evil is a violation of law, because it is murder. Have your cake and eat it too!

Clever, eh?

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:02 pm

Keflex wrote:Fuzz and I got in a huge yelling match about this in IRC the other day, in which I was saying the alignment system is very imperfect, and he absolutely insisted that the alignment system is very imperfect.

In conclusion, I firmly believe the alignment system is imperfect, but it's what we've got. Live with it.

Damn straight. Now get back into IRC< asshole. We're having a severe lack of logical thought in there lately.

choraldances · Post by **choraldances** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:10 pm

The only "rule" about alignment that counts is posted in the forum.

The only "interpretation" of this "rule" that is accepted are the interpretations from DM's.

End of story.

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:13 pm

choraldances wrote:The only "rule" about alignment that counts is posted in the forum.

The only "interpretation" of this "rule" that is accepted are the interpretations from DM's.

End of story.

1. I posted this in "NWN General Discussion", not in "Beg the Team" or "Whinn to the Team because you believe something is terribly wrong"

2. If I understand well, "General Discussion" means we can discuss things in general

and while I get it you won't change anything, its a dead horse, etc, etc.... I can still think its silly, and discuss about it with those who are interested, right?

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:16 pm

myzmar wrote:
choraldances wrote:The only "rule" about alignment that counts is posted in the forum.

The only "interpretation" of this "rule" that is accepted are the interpretations from DM's.

End of story.
1. I posted this in "NWN General Discussion", not in "Beg the Team" or "Whinn to the Team because you believe something is terribly wrong"

2. If I understand well, "General Discussion" means we can discuss things in general and while I get it you won't change anything, its a dead horse, etc, etc.... I can still think its silly, and discuss about it with those who are interested, right?

I'd suggest doing it somewhere else... in the end, this is still borrowed space and bandwidth from the Avlis webserver... doesn't mean much with one post, but consider that mindset on a massive scale, and thus hundreds of posts about frivolous non-issues...

myzmar · Post by **myzmar** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:23 pm

Fuzz wrote:I'd suggest doing it somewhere else... in the end, this is still borrowed space and bandwidth from the Avlis webserver... doesn't mean much with one post, but consider that mindset on a massive scale, and thus hundreds of posts about frivolous non-issues...

Something like "Random Discussions", right. But you do have a point. Consider this thread locked then.

choraldances · Post by **choraldances** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:32 am

myzmar wrote:
Fuzz wrote:I'd suggest doing it somewhere else... in the end, this is still borrowed space and bandwidth from the Avlis webserver... doesn't mean much with one post, but consider that mindset on a massive scale, and thus hundreds of posts about frivolous non-issues...
Something like "Random Discussions", right. But you do have a point. Consider this thread locked then.

I really mean no disrespect. But after being here for close to 2 years, this topic has probably the most post. A simple search done granted me 32 pages worth of topics.

*Grins*

This is followed closely by character balance.

That's why I posted that simple answer. Save us the bandwidth, really