Is your stealth based PC a shadowdancer?

[Tangleroot]

*refers to posts by Nob, Aerill and Fuzz.*

And those of you who can't accept those arguments, I pity you foos.

[White-Raven]

Apply a daze effect to SD's for one round after going HiPS. They can still move etc, but not attack.

Apply a silence effect to Cleric/mages for one round after casting Greater Sanctuary. They can still move etc, but not cast any spell, not even defensive.

Apply an effect of standing still watching the knocked down opponent for one round for fighters, after successful knockdown. They stand and watch for one round, but does not attack. Maybe taunt?

Apply an affect of sitting down for bards, after singing when they wait for the applauds from the crowed listening? or the listeners roll some save, if good enought song, they applaude?

Apply a delay for called shot, where the shooter stands still aiming the target one round before able to fire?

There are many possibilities.

[Enverex]

Voted No, I don't like the class... mostly due to the way it is exploitable here.

Proposal:

Apply a daze effect to SD's for one round after going HiPS. They can still move etc, but not attack.

So now it becomes useless. Not only are you 50% movement speed impared whilst Stealthed, you would not have another 50% movement speed decrease, and not be able to attack, or do anything else. Wonderful.

As stated, they ARE supposed to be able to stealth and attack, it's one of the main reasons for the skill in the first place.

[Gordaan Of Garagos]

Learning not to exploit the feat goes a long way to making things fun for everybody involved.

And I know well what I am talking about. Have been playing an SD for a long while myself, thank you.

Errr... fair enough if you don't like it A, but no need to be so snotty about it. I don't see TEK being offensive toward you in his post, perhaps the same consideration would have been polite?

Dead horse and all that sure, but let's try to be nice to each other.. even if you do have SD hatred

And LOL @ Raven.

Zak spends the vast majority of his time hidden (sneaking and listening, yesssssssss) and as a rule *fades from sight* (Except when people like Lafreth *Appears not to notice Zak fading* )

Occasionally for effect he will "blink" in and out, but that is the exception to the rule... and normally to impress the chicks... errr.. I mean... oh.

The occasions that he isn't stealthed... he is usually invisible

G

[Starslayer_D]

Ok... there is a man difference between HiPS in PnP, and in NWN

in PnP, your combat sequence is not terminated, and you aren't flaatfooted. The SD still has to maneuver for a flanking attack.


This is the primary broken aspect. If the engine would allow one to switch on/off combat mode for a minute after combat ended.. means, you determine when you relax, and not the engine wich calls you out of combat as sooon as the SD goes HiPS...

Hell, you can't rest for a minute after last foe is dead, why can't you be nonflatfooted in the same time?

That would, IMHO, solve half the issue.

Solution to the second one: Spot check against HiPS is made immediately, and not when next combat round starts.

[Aerill]

Learning not to exploit the feat goes a long way to making things fun for everybody involved.

And I know well what I am talking about. Have been playing an SD for a long while myself, thank you.

Errr... fair enough if you don't like it A, but no need to be so snotty about it. I don't see TEK being offensive toward you in his post, perhaps the same consideration would have been polite?

I have only stated that I have enough experience with the class myself, after he has mentioned that he used the class both as a player and a DM.

If it came out as offensive, I am sorry as it was not intentional.

[Gordaan Of Garagos]

Yay! Didn't think so

*pours everyone an ale*

G

[SpitwolF]

My favourite stealth char is druid/rogue. Extended camouflage can be quite handy gets your hide up VERY high

[White-Raven]

Extended camouflage? Doesnt that just last longer time? Can it be empowered as well?

[Aerill]

Extended camouflage? Doesnt that just last longer time? Can it be empowered as well?

Extended just doubles the duration.

Just made a quick test and no, Camouflage can't be empowered.

[KenLie]

Extended camouflage? Doesnt that just last longer time? Can it be empowered as well?

No. There's no empowered camouflage.

PS. There's something strange in those durations though. Anyone know how the durations are currently? they certainly aren't like it says in descriptions(camouflage & masscamouflage)

[SpitwolF]

I spose monk is better though. Although does not fit in my characters description. More AC for my wild shapes would really help. But I don't go for power Dam my conscience

[Jordicus]

No, in PnP it doesn't work this way. Your attack would still land, even if against 50% concealment. You wouldn't end flat-footed either. A shadowdancer wouldn't be able to vanish in a bright daylight on the flat field. And so on.

so you're telling me taht in PnP a PC can make an attack on another character taht has successfully passed a HIDE check without knowing where they are? I'd like to know what rules you play by, cause in 3E and 3.5E you still have to make your SPOT check to know where the other person is in order to physically attack them or to cast a Targetted spell at them.

As for the flat field issue, it's already been pointed out by many people that it is impossible for there to be a place without a single shadow. And taht is all that is required for a Shadowdancer to hide. There are no stipulations in the PHB or the DMG that state that the shadow needs to be a certain size, it just needs to exist.

as for the flat-footed issue, it's been know that since day 1 that Bioware screwed up how it calculates Flat-Footed. that's not caused by HiPS

but enough of this useless discussion. HiPS will NOT be changed and will NOT be removed, regardless of how certain individuals insist that every aspect of the feat is broken when it's not.

[TheElvenKing]

I don't like the class itself. As Fuzz put it, people use it as what they feel is the better alternative to the assassin class. Guess what? SDs aren't assassins. They have the potential but to choose the class due to mechanical advantage while you're really just RPing being the ultimate fighting machine/assassin is wanking.

If you don't like the class that's your prerogative, but don't make the assumption that you know why other characters have taken the class - you don't.

SDs are supposed to be elusive and mysterious. To date, I have met 2 out of dozens and dozens that pull off a SD.

Considering Avlis doesn't even have 'dozens and dozens' of SD'ers in the database, I would disagree, and unless you've taken the time to game with every one of them (you haven't) this point has no merit.

The PrC should be guarded more, policed more. If you don't act like a SD, you don't deserve it. You have no reason, valid reason to take SD in a RP sense, you should not be allowed to take it. If you don't act the part of a SD once you get it, you should be stripped of it.

Excuse me? Guarded more? Considering I've been the DM running the PrC quests for SD since the scripted one was disabled a few months ago, I know exactly how many characters have had the class unlocked. Guess what? It's a very small number, and each player had to go through a waiting period that included various 'mini-quests' they had to complete in order to keep moving forward.

In terms of judging whether or not someone acts like a SD and should continue to or not to, that's entirely the realm of the DM's to decide, not you. Worry about playing your own character and RP'ing your own PrC and stop worrying about someone else's.

I was going to take SD myself. I took the feats and made contact with the respective parties involved. My character uses shadows more than 99% of all SDs use the shadows. At the very last minute I pulled from it as a friend kindly pointed out my character's an assassin type, not a SD.

Never regret it, especially after taking a closer look at both the classes from a RP perspective which is what counts on a RP server.

And it is entirely your choice to do that, and I congratulate you on finding that happy niche for your character. Just don't on the bandwagon with broad generalizations without seeing the whole picture; you don't, and until you do it is nothing more than a pointless exercise in whining.

[Aerill]

so you're telling me taht in PnP a PC can make an attack on another character taht has successfully passed a HIDE check without knowing where they are? I'd like to know what rules you play by, cause in 3E and 3.5E you still have to make your SPOT check to know where the other person is in order to physically attack them or to cast a Targetted spell at them.

Umm, Hide check allows one to hide, not to move out from a sword's blow at an extraordinary speed. If I swing with a sword at someone I see and they disappear, my attack will continue and not immediately stop as it works in NWN. Besides the Hide check should first have to beat my spot check, and as it is in NWN it doesn't call for the check until next round, thus breaking all actions, even if I win my first check.

As for the flat field issue, it's already been pointed out by many people that it is impossible for there to be a place without a single shadow. And taht is all that is required for a Shadowdancer to hide. There are no stipulations in the PHB or the DMG that state that the shadow needs to be a certain size, it just needs to exist.

If it would work this way there wouldn't be a need to mention shadows at all. You just hide wherever?

If that's not invulnerability then why?

In PnP at least there are numerous other ways you could deal with SD, which are impossible in NWN due to engine limitations.

as for the flat-footed issue, it's been know that since day 1 that Bioware screwed up how it calculates Flat-Footed. that's not caused by HiPS

but enough of this useless discussion. HiPS will NOT be changed and will NOT be removed, regardless of how certain individuals insist that every aspect of the feat is broken when it's not.

Fine, I understand that there is no way to fix it as it is hard-coded and it would screw a lot of existing characters. But saying it is not broken?..

There are also numerous ways the issue could be solved without resorting to changing HiPS itself. Why not use them? Just from the top of the head:

1) Make True Seeing last 1 round/level, but work as in Bioware's version. To deal with invisibility there are still See Invisibility and Invisibility Purge

2) Add a potion that would give old True Seeing for 1 turn. Would quickly turn into alchemist's bestseller..

Both ways give people a way to deal with HiPS, yet due to very short duration noone will use it unless they know for sure there is someone around using stealth (for example they started attacking). Stealth in general would still remain very useful this way. Especially if the potion is expensive enough.

Of course monsters would still remain defenseless, but perhaps giving some of them such potions (undroppable) would help them too.

[SpitwolF]

Make True Seeing last 1 round/level, but work as in Bioware's version.

Problem with that. Now I don't know whether this happens on this server. But EVERYONE walks around the servers all buffed up. With true seeing the lot. No one can really be a recon or hide anywhere they want (Not all hiders wanna kill who they are watching).

I think it is a problem with all PW servers, for EVERYONE knows where all the spawn points are, they know when they are going to be attacked.

[Jordicus]

so you're telling me taht in PnP a PC can make an attack on another character taht has successfully passed a HIDE check without knowing where they are? I'd like to know what rules you play by, cause in 3E and 3.5E you still have to make your SPOT check to know where the other person is in order to physically attack them or to cast a Targetted spell at them.

Umm, Hide check allows one to hide, not to move out from a sword's blow at an extraordinary speed. If I swing with a sword at someone I see and they disappear, my attack will continue and not immediately stop as it works in NWN. Besides the Hide check should first have to beat my spot check, and as it is in NWN it doesn't call for the check until next round, thus breaking all actions, even if I win my first check.

Hide is a partial action. That means that I am free to Hide and then move away all in the same round as long as I still have movement left in my round. So you could swing at me all you want, but unless your Spot has beaten my Hide, you wouldn't know where I was, and I would no longer be standing in front of you.

[Aerill]

Make True Seeing last 1 round/level, but work as in Bioware's version.

Problem with that. Now I don't know whether this happens on this server. But EVERYONE walks around the servers all buffed up. With true seeing the lot. No one can really be a recon or hide anywhere they want (Not all hiders wanna kill who they are watching).

I think it is a problem with all PW servers, for EVERYONE knows where all the spawn points are, they know when they are going to be attacked.

That's why the idea is to make it last for a very short duration: enough to use it when something comes up, but to not be able to walk with it as a constant buff.

[Psychopathaway]

I still say HiPS is wank.... *motions middle finger to all users of*

[Jordicus]

and NO. there will be no changes made to deal with HiPS. the old True Seeing will NOT be reinstated.

like I said and Twiggy has said and Strangg has said, you can beat this dead horse all you want, but it will accomplish NOTHING.

[Nob]

Learning not to exploit the feat goes a long way to making things fun for everybody involved.

Well then, I think there needs to be a clarification on said subject within DM circles before this is brought out as a point.

Almost the ENTIRE reason why so many of us are frustrated with HiPS is A. AI exploitation of the flat footing and B. Guess what? DM spawns that do this HIPSing exploit ad nauseum.

It's extremely frustrating to simply be hacked to pieces by a 20d6 sneak attack with no recourse against an enemy that's already hard enough to hit when he attacks and vanishes at range before clicking or auto-targetting can get off a single attack. This is made even worse when MANY times these spawns wind up being set to a faction that's non-hostile, hence auto-attack doesn't happen AT ALL nor do AoE spells work as neutral targets aren't hit by them in the current code implementation.

Is this fun? HELL NO.

Solutions? I don't know.

Perhaps maybe make the spell Clairvoyance actually useful by giving it slight changes against hiding or a better bonus to spot. Not all of us have access to true-seeing.

[Aerill]

Hide is a partial action. That means that I am free to Hide and then move away all in the same round as long as I still have movement left in my round. So you could swing at me all you want, but unless your Spot has beaten my Hide, you wouldn't know where I was, and I would no longer be standing in front of you.

You are forgetting one important thing. In PnP you get to act in turns. You can use the round to sneak attack me, hide, then move away. Then I would get to use the round to make a spot check to detect you, move in, attack (if I failed the spot - fine, I can't). In NWN rounds for both players happen simultaneously (real-time), therefore I lose my ability to detect and attack you, if you use HiPS every round.

[VETT SCALES L7]

I don't like the class itself. As Fuzz put it, people use it as what they feel is the better alternative to the assassin class. Guess what? SDs aren't assassins. They have the potential but to choose the class due to mechanical advantage while you're really just RPing being the ultimate fighting machine/assassin is wanking.

If you don't like the class that's your prerogative, but don't make the assumption that you know why other characters have taken the class - you don't.

SDs are supposed to be elusive and mysterious. To date, I have met 2 out of dozens and dozens that pull off a SD.

Considering Avlis doesn't even have 'dozens and dozens' of SD'ers in the database, I would disagree, and unless you've taken the time to game with every one of them (you haven't) this point has no merit.

The PrC should be guarded more, policed more. If you don't act like a SD, you don't deserve it. You have no reason, valid reason to take SD in a RP sense, you should not be allowed to take it. If you don't act the part of a SD once you get it, you should be stripped of it.

Excuse me? Guarded more? Considering I've been the DM running the PrC quests for SD since the scripted one was disabled a few months ago, I know exactly how many characters have had the class unlocked. Guess what? It's a very small number, and each player had to go through a waiting period that included various 'mini-quests' they had to complete in order to keep moving forward.

In terms of judging whether or not someone acts like a SD and should continue to or not to, that's entirely the realm of the DM's to decide, not you. Worry about playing your own character and RP'ing your own PrC and stop worrying about someone else's.

I was going to take SD myself. I took the feats and made contact with the respective parties involved. My character uses shadows more than 99% of all SDs use the shadows. At the very last minute I pulled from it as a friend kindly pointed out my character's an assassin type, not a SD.

Never regret it, especially after taking a closer look at both the classes from a RP perspective which is what counts on a RP server.

And it is entirely your choice to do that, and I congratulate you on finding that happy niche for your character. Just don't on the bandwagon with broad generalizations without seeing the whole picture; you don't, and until you do it is nothing more than a pointless exercise in whining.

I stand by my opinion cause I know I'm right

SDs wank, and lighten up! You're taking what I said awful close to heart.

[Comick]

Solution to the second one: Spot check against HiPS is made immediately, and not when next combat round starts.

I fully agree. If a PC is looking at a SD who tries to HiPS it would be quite natural that the spot roll is made before the SD disappears. I don't know what the PnP version of D&D says about it though.

Anyway I doubt there's a way for the team to change when the spot and listen checks are made.

Two alternatives are possible:

1) Fairplay
When a SD goes HiPS he stops doing any action (moving, attacking, etc) for a whole round to allow the PCs around to make a spot and a listen checks. Obviously it requires a lot of discipline for the player controlling the SD. Unfortunately it won't solve the problem of NPCs using HiPS.

2) Round based duration real True Sight
TS has been nerfed to give sneakers a chance to do their job and this is great. I think that a round based duration real TS could solve the problem nicely. Real TS will be used only for combat situations (or for private meetings) and would give a chance to fight back a SD using (or abusing ) HiPS.

Just my 2 cents on this burning topic.

*HiPS*

[Jordicus]

how would you know to make a Spot check unless your opponent has made a Hide roll?