Is your stealth based PC a shadowdancer?

[girlysprite]

well I once saw a dm creature, a sereg shadowdancer, and he also struck and immediately vanished. Not once, but at least a dozen times. My mage only got to hit him once, while I clicked at him immediately when he appeared. but the spell got cancelled every time because he hid again. In plain sight yes.

If players are supposed to play like Fozz described, let the dm's start.

[WrathOG777]

well I once saw a dm creature, a sereg shadowdancer, and he also struck and immediately vanished. Not once, but at least a dozen times. My mage only got to hit him once, while I clicked at him immediately when he appeared. but the spell got cancelled every time because he hid again. In plain sight yes.

If players are supposed to play like Fozz described, let the dm's start.

I am pretty sure that strikeing once and fadeing away is what it is for.

It is the repeated strikeing, fade, flatfoot, strike for free sneak attacks again, repeat until you win that is exploitive.

[srn]

I _think_ that AA special arrows (fireball & the auto-hit ones) actually aren't stopped by the HiPS thing. Certainly we tested the auto-hit one with Elv & Amy...

Doesn't help much, since that gives you at best 5 shots/day that will hit, but it's a small comfort to us AAs

[Arkonswrath]

FYI to casters and such... you do realize that you don't have to actually target the person to hit them with spells... a fireball or other such area affect spell is going to hit them regardless of HiPS.. and if you aren't actively targeting them, then HiPS isn't going to cancel out the spell...

[Psyco]

well I once saw a dm creature, a sereg shadowdancer, and he also struck and immediately vanished. Not once, but at least a dozen times. My mage only got to hit him once, while I clicked at him immediately when he appeared. but the spell got cancelled every time because he hid again. In plain sight yes.

If players are supposed to play like Fozz described, let the dm's start.

Just because something is spawned in by a DM doesn't mean it is being possesed by the DM. They can only be in one place at once and creatures that get spawned in have AI as well.

And I don't think many people would argue that fact that the biggest exploiter of HIPS is the AI.

This discussion is not about the AI, please keep to the topic.

[Emprod]

well I once saw a dm creature, a sereg shadowdancer, and he also struck and immediately vanished. Not once, but at least a dozen times. My mage only got to hit him once, while I clicked at him immediately when he appeared. but the spell got cancelled every time because he hid again. In plain sight yes.

If players are supposed to play like Fozz described, let the dm's start.

Just because something is spawned in by a DM doesn't mean it is being possesed by the DM. They can only be in one place at once and creatures that get spawned in have AI as well.

And I don't think many people would argue that fact that the biggest exploiter of HIPS is the AI.

This discussion is not about the AI, please keep to the topic.

Uh, that was probably Silk. He has perfected the art of HIPS exploiting.

AI can't do it quite as good as some folks at a keyboard.

[Jordicus]

that's still no reason to be disrespectful.

HiPS is ALL about being able to hide and do whatever you want. If that mean Hide and attack, then so be it. it is the nature of the ability. Hiding is a partial action, so there is nothing the prevents a PC in PnP from Hiding and making an attack as long as the PC has enough rounds free.

The ONLY broken aspect of HiPS is that the hiding PC can sometimes momentarily beat the Spot of a PC who should be able to see them. However if your spot is not high enough, then their action is fully legit. Also, it is 100% legit for targeted spells to be cancelled if the target disappears from your vision. that's why they are called "Targetted" spells. They have to be cast at a VISIBLE target.

Is disengaging from combat and hiding to set the enemy flatfooted and break their attack an exploit?

Is the ability to cancel any spell fired at you with a hit of one button unlimited amount of times / day an exploit?

Is the ability to leave any combat you are losing and disappear to heal and prepare an exploit?

Is the ability to fire a few called shot sneak attacks at the enemy and disappear just to keep the distance and repeat it an exploit?

NONE of these are exploits and 100% of them are done in PnP just as well as in NWN.

if you don't like the class for whatever reason, then don't take it or use it. But enough bashing

[Fire Monkey]

I am not sure if I have fought any NPC's with HIPS in Avlis. I have fought a couple in Rockhome though. Those ones could HIPS even when they had just been knocked down and were still on the floor (I hasten to add that PC's can't do this). Now thats cheating if you ask me. Damn NPC's

Anyone know if that happens in Avlis as well?

[Fuzz]

What about HiPSing during a Timestop, HiPSing while under the effect of Flesh to Stone, or HiPSing while Stunned/Dazed/Paralyzed?

All three of which are possible, and I've seen done multiple times ingame, and are known bugs.

And does the logic that if you see someone ingame, IC, HiPSing, you can tehrefore IC assume they're a Shadow Dirk still hold true? (Regardless of whether or not they actually are)

The Dirks are known on Avlis for mastering and discovering this ability as part of the backstory... whether or not your PC would know about the Dirks is questionable, but seeing as how Avlis is using the 3E rules, the only type of people that would have HiPS are Shadowdancers, and the Dirks are the most well known Shadowdancers, IC.

[Jordicus]

What about HiPSing during a Timestop, HiPSing while under the effect of Flesh to Stone, or HiPSing while Stunned/Dazed/Paralyzed?

All three of which are possible, and I've seen done multiple times ingame, and are known bugs.

those are bugs, yes.

[Psychopathaway]

I said no sir, I don't like it.

HiPS is total wank and I want nothin to do with it. I prefer the traditional sneak and stabbo method.

[Bear]

What about HiPSing during a Timestop, HiPSing while under the effect of Flesh to Stone, or HiPSing while Stunned/Dazed/Paralyzed?

those are bugs, yes.[/quote]

Does it really do that? Last time, somebody cast timestop in my little universe, I remember being dead. I did a search over the last 2 years on "HiPS" and "timestop" on the bioware forums and all I could find was a post about how a mage with timestop was pOWNZ'ng everyone.... including the shadow dancers. I don't have it in me to keep on searching this issue.

Sorry if I sound sceptical, but I've seen this all many many times before:

HIPS is Broken.
Why?

Because it lets you take it at first level.
But that's what the paper rules allow for.

Because it lets you attack, then disengage and then attack in the same round -- that's too many actions.
But that's what the paper rules allow for.

Because it allows you to cancel a mage's spells.
But that's what the paper rules allow for, try using AOE spells.

Because I always get killed by shadow dancers.
Try fighting in a group or using other tactics. Even the highest level shadow dancers have been killed.

Because [insert some new argument.....]

The only.... only only only only only broken issue that we as a community have been able to collectively verify is the following:

1. When you HiPS PCs that are standing immediately next to you they do not get to attack you while hidden with the standard 50% miss rate. This is not an issue for NPCs which can continue to attack, nor is it an issue for archers who are rarely (if ever) standing within 5ft of you.;

Accordingly, i think it generally well understood in the SD community that power slapping HiPS immediately next to a PC (thereby depriving them of the 50% miss attack) is bad form.

2. The hiding PC can sometimes momentarily beat the Spot of a PC who should be able to see them. However if your spot is not high enough, then their action is fully legit. Frankly, this isn't really a bug, b/c folks get perception checks at the beggining of the round. So.... by the time SD attacks again, you have already had your perception check and you can see them.... so no sneak attack.

You can think all the bad thoughts you want about HiPS. You can call it a crutch. You can call SD'cers all powergamers. You can say nobody roleplays ShadowDancers even though you never personally roleplay with them. Frankly, I've heard it all before. However, if you're going to post why HiPS is broken, please make sure you: A) read through all prior posts on the subject; and B) post some real tests. Everyone has said these are well "known issues," but so far nobody has been right....

Bear

[CPU]

One of the first things I learned from a fellow well-known Avlisian rogue of some long gone ill repute?

If you get in trouble:
Invisbility potions / Rings of invisibility
Then Stealth


...HiPs is nothing you couldn't already do - it just costs less gold now.

[Nob]

The single greatest problem with HiPS?

It AUTOMATICALLY clears your action query, leaving you both flatfooted and completely defenseless as well as interrupting targetted AoE spells(which shouldn't happen)

This can be done multiple times in a round cancelling out entire sequences and at the same time allowing for NO retaliation due to the way auto-attack is implemented in the engine. In PnP you could percieve, draw a bowstring and retaliate in that same round that isn't possible in NWN.

As for "real" tests.

Given that you're not the one constantly facing HiPSing Sereg who are almost near impossible to retaliate against when played correctly, perhaps you should shut the hell up before going all condescending on everyone else who has actually FACED these things in mass quantities instead of whining about how we don't do enough testing.

You want results of said testing? A large number of players simply don't bother fighting Sereg nor do they bother even TRYING to fight shadowdancers because of the ridiculous invincibility they have using ranged attacks and an engine limitation.

[Aerill]

The ONLY broken aspect of HiPS is that the hiding PC can sometimes momentarily beat the Spot of a PC who should be able to see them. However if your spot is not high enough, then their action is fully legit. Also, it is 100% legit for targeted spells to be cancelled if the target disappears from your vision. that's why they are called "Targetted" spells. They have to be cast at a VISIBLE target.

Sorry, but I may have 100 spot and a person with HiPS may have 10 Hide and it will still cancel all actions. Tested it a lot of times. And again you are assuming CvC - monster's AI doesn't realize that and will still "target" area effect spells and they will get cancelled.

NONE of these are exploits and 100% of them are done in PnP just as well as in NWN.

No, in PnP it doesn't work this way. Your attack would still land, even if against 50% concealment. You wouldn't end flat-footed either. A shadowdancer wouldn't be able to vanish in a bright daylight on the flat field. And so on.

Sorry if people don't like the fact that some have an invulnerability toggle on their menu, because that's what HiPS is. Like it or not.

[Aerill]

Does it really do that? Last time, somebody cast timestop in my little universe, I remember being dead. I did a search over the last 2 years on "HiPS" and "timestop" on the bioware forums and all I could find was a post about how a mage with timestop was pOWNZ'ng everyone.... including the shadow dancers. I don't have it in me to keep on searching this issue.

People at Bioware forums get to play with Bioware True Seeing. Problem solved for them.

2. The hiding PC can sometimes momentarily beat the Spot of a PC who should be able to see them. However if your spot is not high enough, then their action is fully legit. Frankly, this isn't really a bug, b/c folks get perception checks at the beggining of the round. So.... by the time SD attacks again, you have already had your perception check and you can see them.... so no sneak attack.

To stop being flat-footed you don't only need to make the spot check, but also enter combat again. So that's wrong.

Frankly, I've heard it all before. However, if you're going to post why HiPS is broken, please make sure you: A) read through all prior posts on the subject; and B) post some real tests. Everyone has said these are well "known issues," but so far nobody has been right....

Done that. Know very well what I am talking about.

[Gairus]

can we agree to disagree here?

Personal attacks (Bear) are not agreeing to disagree

Other people read the same posts and do the same tests as you and come to different conclusions. They're not wrong.

[Aerill]

I am not sure if I have fought any NPC's with HIPS in Avlis. I have fought a couple in Rockhome though. Those ones could HIPS even when they had just been knocked down and were still on the floor (I hasten to add that PC's can't do this). Now thats cheating if you ask me. Damn NPC's

Anyone know if that happens in Avlis as well?

Try going to Salt Mines level 3-4. NPCs abuse HiPS even more

[TheElvenKing]

can we agree to disagree here?

Personal attacks (Bear) are not agreeing to disagree

Other people read the same posts and do the same tests as you and come to different conclusions. They're not wrong.

Please read the above posts carefully Gairus - I see no personal attacks on Bear's part, and singling him out needlessly does not add any sort of constructive discussion to this debate.

If you people can't talk things over rationally, then STFU and move along.

[Gairus]

*coughs* Ok then. Guess I need a thicker skin. I still see it there.

*agrees to disagree with a second person and moves along, in only a slight huff over being told to STFU in a forum where he doesn't think the acronym should be used*

[VETT SCALES L7]

I don't like the class itself. As Fuzz put it, people use it as what they feel is the better alternative to the assassin class. Guess what?SDs aren't assassins. They have the potential but to choose the class due to mechanical advantage while you're really just RPing being the ultimate fighting machine/assassin is wanking.

SDs are supposed to be elusive and mysterious. To date, I have met 2 out of dozens and dozens that pull off a SD. I can't even say how many I've met that just use HiPS casually, just as if they were rogues using MS....except more brazen of course.

The PrC should be guarded more, policed more. If you don't act like a SD, you don't deserve it. You have no reason, valid reason to take SD in a RP sense, you should not be allowed to take it. If you don't act the part of a SD once you get it, you should be stripped of it.

I was going to take SD myself. I took the feats and made contact with the respective parties involved. My character uses shadows more than 99% of all SDs use the shadows. At the very last minute I pulled from it as a friend kindly pointed out my character's an assassin type, not a SD.

Never regret it, especially after taking a closer look at both the classes from a RP perspective which is what counts on a RP server.

[White-Raven]

I am not sure if I have fought any NPC's with HIPS in Avlis. I have fought a couple in Rockhome though. Those ones could HIPS even when they had just been knocked down and were still on the floor (I hasten to add that PC's can't do this). Now thats cheating if you ask me. Damn NPC's

Anyone know if that happens in Avlis as well?

There are a slight possibility that if you are knocked down, and have hit the hide buttom you will disaper and be knocked over at same time, even as a PC. We have not been able test that however, but have seen a similar thing:

One of the SDs in the "team" was hit by a petrification spell, and vanished. She had hit the hide and was hit by this spell after she hips, the moment when she fades. Was not that easy find her again hehe.

[White-Raven]

If you don't act like a SD, you don't deserve it. You have no reason, valid reason to take SD in a RP sense, you should not be allowed to take it. If you don't act the part of a SD once you get it, you should be stripped of it.

Guess part of this is valid for all classes if you think about it..

Bah, all should STFU and play/rp their char as well as they can and dont police others how they shall play their chars. If there is a problem with some players and their chars, it is the TEAM/DMs that should interfer and not we as normal players. We dont have the autority, we are just guests here..

Send a PM or email the team, if you have problems with people not RP or breaking rules, exploiting etc.

Back to game now, or what you all doing right now. I shall keep doing my RL work, before my vacation tomorrow., had to take a day of to PGaming my charaters

[Starslayer_D]

Voted No, I don't like the class... mostly due to the way it is exploitable here.

[Starslayer_D]

Voted No, I don't like the class... mostly due to the way it is exploitable here.

Proposal:

Apply a daze effect to SD's for one round after going HiPS. They can still move etc, but not attack.