I've seen that at Moonsea

[Drysh]

I was making a tour around the CoPaP worlds and I created a char in the Moonsea server. They have something that, I think, should be implemented all around the CoPaP.

There characters (PC and NPC) don't have that metagaming information that tells other players the level of it (impossible, overpowering, difficult, easy, effortless). It's amazing how it is more exciting when you don't have a clue if another NPC or PC is weaker or stronger than you.

And, please, don't say you've NEVER looked at the description to check a creature (or PC) level. It's too tempting!

I try to avoid using that, but if I look at a PC description and find "impossible" writen there, I RP a little diferent than when I find "easy" there. And it's nice to check the description to know what you are seeing.

Maybe you should use this Moonsea's idea. Or, maybe just let the "effortless" one, so old players would know who the new players are (and help them to understand Avlis).

[Titanium Dragon]

I was making a tour around the CoPaP worlds and I created a char in the Moonsea server. They have something that, I think, should be implemented all around the CoPaP.

There characters (PC and NPC) don't have that metagaming information that tells other players the level of it (impossible, overpowering, difficult, easy, effortless). It's amazing how it is more exciting when you don't have a clue if another NPC or PC is weaker or stronger than you.

And, please, don't say you've NEVER looked at the description to check a creature (or PC) level. It's too tempting!

I try to avoid using that, but if I look at a PC description and find "impossible" writen there, I RP a little diferent than when I find "easy" there. And it's nice to check the description to know what you are seeing.

Maybe you should use this Moonsea's idea. Or, maybe just let the "effortless" one, so old players would know who the new players are (and help them to understand Avlis).

I read descriptions all the time, and treat them the same regardless of their challenge rating. If you don't, then you need to.

I might treat them different based on their description though.

[Aradan Kir]

I was making a tour around the CoPaP worlds and I created a char in the Moonsea server. They have something that, I think, should be implemented all around the CoPaP.

There characters (PC and NPC) don't have that metagaming information that tells other players the level of it (impossible, overpowering, difficult, easy, effortless). It's amazing how it is more exciting when you don't have a clue if another NPC or PC is weaker or stronger than you.

And, please, don't say you've NEVER looked at the description to check a creature (or PC) level. It's too tempting!

I try to avoid using that, but if I look at a PC description and find "impossible" writen there, I RP a little diferent than when I find "easy" there. And it's nice to check the description to know what you are seeing.

Maybe you should use this Moonsea's idea. Or, maybe just let the "effortless" one, so old players would know who the new players are (and help them to understand Avlis).

that rating is based on level only, so cannot be relied upon. Someone rated impossible with no equipment against someone rated easy with tons of uber stuff would probably not be so one sided.

Also - it cannot be relied upon for creatures as I think it's just based on HD and doesn't take any special abilities into account.

[Drysh]

If this is metagaming information and this can be removed, why don't remove it?

[Jordicus]

AFAIK, it requires a hak

[Bear]

If this is metagaming information and this can be removed, why don't remove it?

I like the idea. I've been trying to rp an old brittle character that gets drunk and avoids fighting at almost all cost. However, when I talk about how I never fight in battles, folks that I don't know roll their eyes and say, "Yeah right." It's slightly annoying.

I would check with the moonsea team to see how they did it. If its a lot of work then you need to be mindful that our team has many many many very important projects. However, if it's a simple code change, and you can provide the 1-2 lines to our team, then they may just plug it in.

Bear

[Tharliss]

I was pleasently surprised when I saw that they were able to remove the challenge ratings. Not sure what it would take to implement, but I would think the Team would be interested in knowing how it's done. Of course, maybe they already know and are not happy with that system. *shrugs*

Yes, the challenge ratings aren't 100% reliable, but people will still abuse the OOC information by getting a feel for how powerful somebody is.

I can think of many IG situations where I know people would RP differently if they weren't sure of the relative "power" of the person they were facing.

[Moredo]

on moonsea you can still see the 'buffs' that the creature/pc has. And that's really all the information you need. (or don't )

[Tharliss]

on moonsea you can still see the 'buffs' that the creature/pc has. And that's really all the information you need. (or don't )

It would be great if that information was removed as well, but that information is much less useful then the Challenge Rating IMHO.

You'll get a ton of info that says: AC Increased, Strength Increased, etc, but you have no idea HOW much they are increased. I could create a low-level character and walk around with various low-level items bought from NPC merchants. It wouldn't be too hard to get a "buff list" with about a dozen entries.

It would actually be fun to do that to mislead all of the OOC metagamers who would look at "buffs" as an indicator of someones power.

[Enverex]

Agreed. I base too much on the rating subconciously.

[Midknight]

I would sorely miss them myself, but that's just the metagamer in me speaking that refuses to wither and die. I'd have to agree that we should take them out.

[srn]

Taking them out requires a hak, which is easy, and adding 4 blank lines to the start of _every_ placeable's description.

Every single one.

[Vanor]

and adding 4 blank lines to the start of _every_ placeable's description.

Every single one.

Yeah that's gonna happen real soon around here...

[Psyco]

4 blank lines, to every placeable?

*collapses and starts convulsing on the floor*

[srn]

Yeah, that's my point. Not bloody likely

The problem is that the same GUI element is used for placeables and creatures. The hak works by putting a black square over the difficulty part of the creature description.

The problem is that that black square blocks out the first few lines of the placeable description.

The other problem is that it's trivial to modify the hak on your local PC to make the black square _not_ appear, so anyone who really wants to see the information will anyway.

[Psyco]

It also makes joining a party impossible doesn't it? I remember hearing that it also blanked the accept button for the party invitation.

With teh number of party based spells that would be a major problem.

[srn]

That was in the same hak, but only because the hak builder wanted it that way, IIRC. It's not the same GUI element, so you could have one or the other or both, unlike the placeable/creature thing where the one change gets both.

*pokes at the prone Team bodies* Hmm, I'll need some smelling salts...

[Titanium Dragon]

on moonsea you can still see the 'buffs' that the creature/pc has. And that's really all the information you need. (or don't )

It would be great if that information was removed as well, but that information is much less useful then the Challenge Rating IMHO.

You'll get a ton of info that says: AC Increased, Strength Increased, etc, but you have no idea HOW much they are increased. I could create a low-level character and walk around with various low-level items bought from NPC merchants. It wouldn't be too hard to get a "buff list" with about a dozen entries.

It would actually be fun to do that to mislead all of the OOC metagamers who would look at "buffs" as an indicator of someones power.

Its actually far more abuseable. You can also see things like Immunity Increased (electricity), immune to critical hits, ect. which you SHOULD have to figure out by experimentation.

CR isn't as useful, as some monsters are nastier relative to their CR and your class than others. A good example of this are creatures in the rift - even though they are "easy" for a 12th level mage, you'll still have a really hard time surviving the first two encounters there.