rapid reload feat broken?

Halvar Yanocen · Post by **Halvar Yanocen** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:42 am

I've tested the rapid reload feat offline and I only get two attacks per round with a cross bow. When I'm using a short bow I get three.

Can anyone else confirm this?

aphrodelic · Post by **aphrodelic** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:43 am

I think it's supposed to be that way.

Halvar Yanocen · Post by **Halvar Yanocen** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:47 am

From the feat description:

The character is able to reload so quickly that they get the same number of attacks with any crossbow as they would with a normal bow.

I think its pretty clear that I should be getting three attacks per round.

Sickocrow · Post by **Sickocrow** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:47 am

It's not how the description says no. It just enables you to fire twice per round rather than once. Not as many attacks as you would with a bow.

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:53 am

Sickocrow · Post by **Sickocrow** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:13 pm

Yeah I know what the IG descriptions says, but that's not how it works. I got a disappointing shock myself when I specifically made my cleric a rapid reloader to find the feat doesn't work as described. My cleric gets 3 attack/round but only fires two bolts.

I put in a bug report about this months back but never heard any more about it, so I have no idea. Anyone with hardcopy DnD books know how this feat works in PnP?

Sicko-

PS: And seeing how the feat is probably hardcoded it probably can't be fixed either.

Vroshgrak · Post by **Vroshgrak** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 5:22 pm

why did they go out of their way to make X-Bows suck?

Drakuul · Post by **Drakuul** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:09 pm

Because xbows do suck in RL too

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:41 pm

Drakuul wrote:Because xbows do suck in RL too

i dare you to take a bolt fired from a x-bow in RL and then tell me afterwards how much they "suck".

Wear plate mail like the old knights used to if you want.

I think they just stuffed up the feat description.

Nob · Post by **Nob** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:00 pm

Drak is speaking in terms of refire rate.

If the longbow:xbow refire rate was accurately modelled, you'd probably see even a larger disparity...

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:54 pm

Nob wrote:Drak is speaking in terms of refire rate.

If the longbow:xbow refire rate was accurately modelled, you'd probably see even a larger disparity...

I thought modern crossbows were quite good. They didn't have those in the medieval ages, but they didn't have adamantium either...

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:23 pm

KinX wrote:
Drakuul wrote:Because xbows do suck in RL too
i dare you to take a bolt fired from a x-bow in RL and then tell me afterwards how much they "suck".

Wear plate mail like the old knights used to if you want.

I think they just stuffed up the feat description.

In PnP, Rapid Reload gives you 1 extra shot with a crossbow in a round, not a matching number of attacks to a regular bow. There's a LOT of extra work involved in loading a crossbow as compared to a strung bow. Bioware just messed up the feat description, but actually coded it correctly to PnP, for a change.

KinX · Post by **KinX** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:19 am

Fuzz wrote:
KinX wrote:
Drakuul wrote:Because xbows do suck in RL too
i dare you to take a bolt fired from a x-bow in RL and then tell me afterwards how much they "suck".

Wear plate mail like the old knights used to if you want.

I think they just stuffed up the feat description.
In PnP, Rapid Reload gives you 1 extra shot with a crossbow in a round, not a matching number of attacks to a regular bow. There's a LOT of extra work involved in loading a crossbow as compared to a strung bow. Bioware just messed up the feat description, but actually coded it correctly to PnP, for a change.

So in other words they stuffed up the feat description.

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:02 am

I read the PnP feat description yesterday, apparently with a hand or light crossbow you get as many attacks as you would with a bow, but with a heavy crossbow it's just one extra attack per round... so sounds like they got it right and stuffed the feat description to me, yes

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:21 pm

Crossbows are rather effective weapons. Due to their higher velocity and mass they are quite devastating compared to the bow. THey are quite effective at peircing armor while being simpler to use so training is not a issue. The modern compound bow, although quite powerful, does not manange that of the crossbow. The big reason is that you can use leverage to give additional power to the release. Compound bows use cams to ease the pull but not the release. This also allows for bigger better bolts only dependand on size of bow. This also means more time in loading.

This is also why a crossbow uses a bolt and not an arrow. The arrow shaft, generally wood, cannot handle the acceleration from the crossbow. THis is also the case in the compound bow for some of the arrows would shatter after release injuring the bowman.

As to the thread topic. I like the pen n paper description that allows all shots on light crossbow, similar damage to long bow, and extra attack with heavy. This makes sense so that you can fire a heavy weapon once per round becuase you still have to use the mechanism to add damage.

SpectralShadows · Post by **SpectralShadows** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:29 pm

Does anyone else here have a sudden urge to go buy some wood & stuff and make some bows?

LastGasp · Post by **LastGasp** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:11 pm

All credit to http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/cr ... l_v_c.html

The Crossbow vs. the Longbow in the Medieval Period

Revised 1 February 2004

The crossbow played an important role in the late Medieval period. The crossbow was really the first hand-held weapon that could be used by an untrained soldier to injure or kill a knight in plate armour. The most powerful crossbows could penetrate armour and kill at 200 yards. Longbowmen could certainly penetrate plate mail (though perhaps not at such a great distance), but longbowman were generally highly trained soldiers. This meant that they were also expensive, and that they could not be replaced easily. (Many bowmen were recruited at a young age to master their craft.)

Anyone could use a crossbow though. Crossbows are easier to aim than longbows because the crossbowman doesn't have to use a hand to hold the string back while aiming. On a similar note, a crossbow can be loaded long before the bowman might need to shoot. In this way, the bowman would be able to shoot immediately if surprised. Crossbows require less upper body strength to operate as well. One can use both arms to span (draw back) a crossbow. Crossbows do, of course, come with a price. That price is in efficiency and in the firing rate. Longbowman could shoot 2-5 times more frequently in a given time than a crossbowman. Efficiency is a more technical problem.

Although it is impossible for any bow to be perfectly efficient, crossbows are particularly inefficient when compared to longbows. The reason for this is that the draw length and the lath (also called a prod) of crossbows are much shorter than those of longbows. So even though a crossbow may have more stored energy when spanned, the tips of the lathe do not have enough time to reach the maximum velocity that the amount of stored energy would otherwise allow. It is the lathe tip velocity that determines the speed of the bolt that is loosed. (Crossbows are not "fired", which is a term related to gunpowder.)
W.F. Paterson (1990) published data from Stephen V. Grancsay about an experiment comparing a longbow and a crossbow that was spanned with a cranequin.

Type of Weapon Draw weight Bolt weight Speed of bolt Difference
Longbow 68 lbs. 2.5 oz 133.7 fps Not much!!
Crossbow 740 lbs 1.25 oz. 138.7 fps Not much!!

This problem could have been alleviated with a longer draw length or a longer lath, but that would increase the weight and bulkiness of the crossbow, which are already two distinct disadvantages of crossbows. In the above example, it should be stated that the bolt loosed by the crossbow could have been heavier without experiencing much of a decrease in exit velocity. A heavier arrow loosed by the longbow would have had a significantly reduced exit velocity.

NOTE: through the use of modern engineering and advanced materials, modern crossbows are now much more efficient. The Excalibur Exomag has a draw weight of 185 pounds, and is able to send a bolt at 290 fps. The 165 pound draw weight Excalibur Exocet looses bolts at 270 fps, and the 150 pound draw weight Excalibur Vixen looses bolts at 250 fps. Special thanks to Excalibur Crossbows for the use of crossbow specs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following was written in response (edited slightly) to a question posed to me about the relative range and power of Medieval longbows and crossbows:

Although there are working examples of Medieval crossbows, there are no working examples of Medieval longbows, so a direct comparison between the two cannot be made. Hence, the only data I can draw on for longbows is either from historical evidence or from reproductions of Medieval longbows. It is my belief that while the range of longbows changed very little from the 11th. century through Medieval times, the range of crossbows certainly did increase. Historical evidence would indicate that in the hands of a well-trained longbowmen, distances of 250-350 yards were commonly attained. A few modern archers have regularly achieved distances of 350-450 yards with reproduction longbows. Inigo Simot loosed an arrow 462 yards 9 inches in 1914, and there is a claim of someone loosing an arrow 482 yards with a longbow.

At the time of the battle of Crecy (1346 C.E.), the English longbow almost certainly had a greater range than the crossbow used in field combat. Throughout the Medieval Period though, crossbows became more powerful. Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey loosed a bolt from an actual Medieval crossbow spanned with a cranequin and achieve a cast of 490 yards. The ordinary 15th. century crossbow would likely cast a bolt 370-380 yards. These crossbows would surely outperform almost any longbow in terms of distance, but the accuracy of the crossbow at those ranges would likely be poor at best.

With range out of the way, power is an even more difficult subject to breach. In general, arrows weigh more than bolts, so they have a larger momentum (force) associated with them. However, a late Medieval crossbow bolt has a higher speed associated with it, which will overcome the lower mass. (the the force being equal to the mass times the square of the velocity). Both longbows and crossbows were capable of penetrating all but the thickest plate maile armour, but my understanding is that the heavy crossbow was the main driving force leading to heavier and heavier plate maile armour. At point blank range, the crossbow almost certainly had greater penetrating power than a long bow. By the 15th century, and possibly earlier, it is safe to say that heavy crossbows (such as a windlass spanned crossbow) were more powerful than longbows. The common crossbow probably wasn't much more powerful though.

Wombatforhire · Post by **Wombatforhire** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:22 pm

From 3.5 PHB (I believe it's a 3.5 feat):

The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire the weapon as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.

GHENGIZ.KHAN · Post by **GHENGIZ.KHAN** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:46 am

The above posts are a little confusing. Can anyone clarify that this feat is only useful for crossbows, and that it doesn't speed up normal bows?

kombinat · Post by **kombinat** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:59 am

GHENGIZ.KHAN wrote:The above posts are a little confusing. Can anyone clarify that this feat is only useful for crossbows, and that it doesn't speed up normal bows?

This feat is only useful for Crossbows. For normal bows, choose the Rapid Shot feat.