Shadow Dancer FR or not?

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:38 pm

I was looking at this PrC in the DMG a few days ago and thinking about the part of the FR campaign book I have read in the game store.

Specifically about the "Shadow Weave."

And it dawned on me that "Shadow Dancers" are using the "Shadow Weave" so they are akin to "Shadow Adepts" but without magical training.

Is this correct?

Because it realy does look like a FR specific PrC to me. Not that I expect changes on Avlis but I am curious if someone more familier with the FR setting can tell me if I am right or not. I had thought as it was in the DMG that is was a "generic" PrC but then I realised that the Red Wizards of Thay are in there too so the DMG is not generic PrCs at all.

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:57 pm

they are in the 3rd edition DMG... where the red wizards aren't.. Paul, please check back with a 3rd edition before posting your 3.5 research results

makeshiftwings · Post by **makeshiftwings** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:11 pm

I don't see anywhere where it says Shadow Dancers use the Shadow Weave. Just because they both have the word "Shadow" doesn't mean they're connected at all. The Shadow Weave was created by Shar and is only used by arcane spellcasters who specifically go out of their way to figure it out. It doesn't really have much to do with actual shadows either, it's more just a "shadow" of the real Weave. Shadowdancers just jump in and out of regular shadows, and don't cast spells at all. Also, Shadowdancers can be good or evil, whereas Shadow Weave users are generally all evil and worship Shar.

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:48 pm

Shadow dancers in PnP terms can actually use the plane of shadow to travel. I beleive most of their abilities are tide to the manipulation of shadows and that is so close to the manipulation of the plane of shadow to the normal plane.

The shadow weave has nothing to do with this for it is a dark magical weave that is the yin to the tang of the regular weave.

Halvar Yanocen · Post by **Halvar Yanocen** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:16 pm

storminj wrote:Shadow dancers in PnP terms can actually use the plane of shadow to travel. I beleive most of their abilities are tide to the manipulation of shadows and that is so close to the manipulation of the plane of shadow to the normal plane.

The shadow weave has nothing to do with this for it is a dark magical weave that is the yin to the tang of the regular weave.

They have no conection to the shadow plane at all and the PnP feat
Shadow Jump does not use the plane of shadow.

Then manuals of the planes mentions that you could use a variant of the
shadow dancer that depend on the shadow plane (at page 64) but
this is not the way they are defined in DMG.

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:39 pm

No connection to the shadow plane? Maybe you should post more detailed info on them from the DMGs, there's a total lack of background for them in NWN.

Always looked to me like you weasels were channeling the shadow plane. It's a supernatural ability, right? Where does it come from if not the shadow plane?

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:44 pm

keikobad wrote:there's a total lack of background for them in NWN.

Sad to say, but the DMG is almost as lacking in background as NWN is. There's Very little IC info there.

It's a supernatural ability, right? Where does it come from if not the shadow plane?

Just because it's a supernatural ablity doesn't mean it has to come from a given plane or divine being. Monks are filled with supernatural ablities, but these don't come from somewhere.

nietzche · Post by **nietzche** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:41 pm

Bwah ha! Someone has strayed into my domain.

I'd like to think that I know a fair deal about the nature of the Shadow Plane, and so, I shall offer my two pence..

The Shadow Plane is a part of the Ethereal, its largest demi-plane. Some Sages reckon that it is on the verge of separating from the Ethereal and becoming its own transitive plane. Being a, or part of a transitive plane, the Shadow Plane can be, and is used to travel. I'm a little blurry on the exact nature of Shadowdancers, but the way I see it, they are able manipulate the shadows on the Prime Material (as they are innately connected to the shadow plane) in the way the Ethereal can be manipulated, with the power of thought.

Or perhaps the Shadowdancers' abilities are a lesser form of Shadow Walking, where one can use the shadows as a gateway to the Shadow Plane, where they can move without being percieved to those on the Prime Material (or another plane, for that matter) without magical assistance. However the fact that a Shadowdancer may still be seen by a keen, yet still magically unaugmented, eye, leads one to believe that perhaps this transition to the ethereal is incomplete, and that they move on the border of between the Prime Material and the Shadow Plane ("Shadowdancers operate in the border between light and darkness" - Class description). Although, since portal to the Shadow Plane, natural or otherwise, always and only exist in shadow on the Prime Material (and other planes) this should limit the Shadowdancer's HiPS ability to use only in dark shadow. I myself, have a somewhat unorthodox, yet highly researched, shadowdancer character which may or may not find it's way to Avlis, and I make a point of only using the HiPS ability in shadow or at night.

Of course, it could just be the fact that they are just rogues who specialise in staying hidden in the shadows, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the shadow plane. But that's just dull eh?

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:16 pm

Shadowdancing has nothing at all to do with the Shadow Weave, which is concerned with casting arcane magic through a means unrelated to the Goddess Mystra (the source and manifestation of magic in FR). The Shadow Weave only exists in FR.

Shadowdancing is not an FR specific thing by any means.

- Aloro

nietzche · Post by **nietzche** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:38 pm

Oh right, Shadow Weave, topic of this post, something I know little to nothing about, chiefly unrelated to what I was saying, gratituous use of sentence fragments separated by commas.

Well, I hope it was interesting anyway

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:52 am

The only background information in the DMG is the same as what is written in the NWN manual.

Hide in plain sight, darkvision, summon shadow, (shadow daze in NWN), and shadow jump are all supernatural. They have to come from somewhere.

The arguement about monks is sound but the character class is an exception anyway. The class as a whole does not fit into most fantasy settings unless you have an oriental flavor to your campaign. The greyhawk campaign got around this neatly with the scarlet brotherhood but that made them basically a prestige class. The nature of their supernatural powers is psionics (sort of) where they have managed to use their mental powers to exert control over their bodies to do otherwise impossible things. But it is clearly stated that it has to do with their mental skills and their control over their own bodies. And the closest thing to that is psionics.

Still the shadowdancers supernatural abilities HAVE to come from something.

There is nothing in the FR campaign setting book or the character guide on shadow dancers? This is realy what I was asking...well beyond if somewhere it is explained where these abilities are coming from.

Tangleroot · Post by **Tangleroot** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:54 am

They can do it because they're really kewl?

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:07 am

Actually having played on open vault servers the answer is no they are not realy Kewl. They are generally anything but.

The first time you see "wing buffets" or "save vrs death DC 52" or "To Hit Roll: 10+ (-109) = -99 *hit*" you loose any appreciation you might have had for "Kewl."

But it looks like I will probably have to buy the FR campaign book myself and see if I can find anything in there.

Strangg · Post by **Strangg** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:07 pm

There is nothing in the FR campaign setting book or the character guide on shadow dancers? This is realy what I was asking...well beyond if somewhere it is explained where these abilities are coming from.

I own the FRCS and it doesn't really discuss shadow dancers at all. It talks about the shadow weave and shadow adepts and such, but not shadow dancers. Shadow dancers are a generic D&D PrC not a setting specific PrC like Red Wizards and Harper Scouts. You will not find anything specific about shadow dancers in the FRCS anymore than you will find anything specific about Dwarven Defenders or Weaponsmasters.

~S

keikobad · Post by **keikobad** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:44 am

Vanor wrote:

It's a supernatural ability, right? Where does it come from if not the shadow plane?
Just because it's a supernatural ablity doesn't mean it has to come from a given plane or divine being. Monks are filled with supernatural ablities, but these don't come from somewhere.

Well, Monks get their powers by channeling "Ki," no? What exactly Ki is, well... but they seem to imply its some kind of energy floating out there, like magic, that monks simply learn to use.

Now, Shadowdancers have a supernatural connection to shadows. They can 'disappear' into them, conjure them out of nowhere to give themselves concealment/immunities (ghostly visage-style). So, to argue that they DON'T have a connection to the plane of shadow you'd have to say that ordinary shadows in the Prime Material etc. have no connection to the Plane of Shadow. Which could be perfectly reasonable.

Now, in NWN SDs also summon Shadows-- I forget what they're supposed to be in PnP-- do those not come from the plane of Shadow?

Emprod · Post by **Emprod** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:16 am

The manual of the planes has a little sidebar with some optional rules for Shadowdancers should the GM of the campaign decide they have some link to the shadow plane.

That implies to me that by default they don't.

(I don't have it handy, was bored at the bookstore earlier)

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:53 am

Picked up the FRCS and looked in it. Shadow Dancers are discussed as a Dungeon Masters Guide Prestige Class. As opposed to a forgotten realms one.

So it looks like one of those rare times Strangg and I are in agreement (more or less).

The fact that one of the feats they get though is the same as a shadow adept would make me think if you were running a FR campaign that their abilities come from taping into the shadow weave, but it is not specified. Those supernatural abilities though do have to come from somewhere, if there is an addendum changing them if they are tapping the plane of shadows then if you are in the FR it can only be the shadow weave.

makeshiftwings · Post by **makeshiftwings** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:59 pm

Spell Singer wrote:Picked up the FRCS and looked in it. Shadow Dancers are discussed as a Dungeon Masters Guide Prestige Class. As opposed to a forgotten realms one.

So it looks like one of those rare times Strangg and I are in agreement (more or less).

The fact that one of the feats they get though is the same as a shadow adept would make me think if you were running a FR campaign that their abilities come from taping into the shadow weave, but it is not specified. Those supernatural abilities though do have to come from somewhere, if there is an addendum changing them if they are tapping the plane of shadows then if you are in the FR it can only be the shadow weave.

The Shadow Weave has nothing to do with the Plane of Shadows. (Alright, it might have a little to do with it, but they are not necessarily the same thing at all.) The Shadow Weave was created by Shar and is used by corrupt mages to cast spells. You need to study extensively to be able to access the shadow weave, and once you do, you go mad (lose Wisdom) unless you pledge yourself to Shar. Nothing like that happens if you become a Shadowdancer. FR just has a problem with overusing the word "shadow". All the things that use it aren't necessarily related. Shades, for instance, are from the plane of shadow, but don't use the Shadow Weave or serve Shar, they mostly use the regular Weave and study Netherese High Magic. Whereas Shadow Adepts, have no connection to the Plane of Shadows, they just use the Shadow Weave.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:49 am

makeshiftwings wrote: The Shadow Weave has nothing to do with the Plane of Shadows. (Alright, it might have a little to do with it, but they are not necessarily the same thing at all.) The Shadow Weave was created by Shar and is used by corrupt mages to cast spells. You need to study extensively to be able to access the shadow weave, and once you do, you go mad (lose Wisdom) unless you pledge yourself to Shar. Nothing like that happens if you become a Shadowdancer. FR just has a problem with overusing the word "shadow". All the things that use it aren't necessarily related. Shades, for instance, are from the plane of shadow, but don't use the Shadow Weave or serve Shar, they mostly use the regular Weave and study Netherese High Magic. Whereas Shadow Adepts, have no connection to the Plane of Shadows, they just use the Shadow Weave.

First off I agree it over uses the word shadow.

But the shadow adept gets the supernatural feat "Darksight" the same as a shadow dancer. I am afraid that supernatural abilities have to come from somewhere. The only thing I have seen in the FR campaign book that fits that is the shadow weave. If shadow adepts gain darksight due to their ties with the shadow weave and if shadow dancers gain it as well it is reasonable to assume it is from the same source. I confess the plane of shadows connection would seem more reasonable except that there is that official change to the class if it is due to that (with out that I would go with the plane of shadows).

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:07 pm

keikobad wrote:Well, Monks get their powers by channeling "Ki," no? What exactly Ki is, well...

Ki, is internal energy. It it something inside you that you learn to tap into over time and training.