Hide in Plain Sight

[Strangg]

The problem with hide in plain sigh is that it is coded improperly. It requires no shadows to use, in PnP it is a requirement.

If that has already been stated, move along and ignore. I'm too busy to read all 6 pages...


~S

[Emprod]

The problem with hide in plain sigh is that it is coded improperly. It requires no shadows to use, in PnP it is a requirement.

If that has already been stated, move along and ignore. I'm too busy to read all 6 pages...


~S

Dude, please read through all the drivel.

NO matter how good your spot is, when a SD goes into hide, you lose them. For a good time. A round, couple rounds, doesn't matter.

If -they- choose to abuse that, they can't be hit for dick. I had a 24th level PC with a 52 spot completely be bamboozled by a 9th level shadowdancer, who used good tactics, and I don't blame them.

Timo, who had a maxed spot and some VERY good gear (+20 on a ring, among other spot gear) couldn't whack a particular shadowdancer. Who was much lower level.

HIPS works wrong, because it can be re-engaged so quickly. The state of "being in combat" is fucked, where the HIPS user can disengage, hide, and totally fuck over the other person.

Yes, this is a CVC issue more than a CVM. So I don't expect it to get too much attention. But I don't expect my PC who has spent a lot of points on spot, to be completely mocked by anything that has a level in this, either.

[Bear]

The problem with hide in plain sigh is that it is coded improperly. It requires no shadows to use, in PnP it is a requirement.

If that has already been stated, move along and ignore. I'm too busy to read all 6 pages...


~S

Dude, please read through all the drivel.

NO matter how good your spot is, when a SD goes into hide, you lose them. For a good time. A round, couple rounds, doesn't matter.

If -they- choose to abuse that, they can't be hit for dick. I had a 24th level PC with a 52 spot completely be bamboozled by a 9th level shadowdancer, who used good tactics, and I don't blame them.

Timo, who had a maxed spot and some VERY good gear (+20 on a ring, among other spot gear) couldn't whack a particular shadowdancer. Who was much lower level.

HIPS works wrong, because it can be re-engaged so quickly. The state of "being in combat" is fucked, where the HIPS user can disengage, hide, and totally fuck over the other person.

Yes, this is a CVC issue more than a CVM. So I don't expect it to get too much attention. But I don't expect my PC who has spent a lot of points on spot, to be completely mocked by anything that has a level in this, either.

From above...

Regarding the bug... Sence I highly doubt we can do jack or shit about that... I'd recomend if it's true, that SD's do not act for 4-5 seconds after they engage HiPS, other then perhaps normal movement.

*Not directed @ Vanor but to this bug point in general*

I have seen no verifiable tests to indicate that there is actually a bug to this effect. When this claim was raised on the other thread, I kindly asked for a link to the bioware forums so that I could review the data. No link was provided.

I then noticed a limited test by one of Green Raven's PCs and a rogue. In that instance, Green's PC was able to see the rogue instantly, and on each occassion. I may have misread the post, but it sure looked conclusive that a bug did not exist.

Does anybody have any hard data? If not, let's run some tests before we start assuming there is actually a bug here.

Thanks,

Bear

[Emprod]

I'm up for a test anytime. I'd really like to understand it better too.

[keikobad]

Wonder if lag in Multiplayer is an issue there. Screws up a lot of other perception issues.

Should do a test in a really simple training mod with 2 people, then in Avlis.

[Titanium Dragon]

Have been testing it a bit.

You can hide in plain sight while...
Knocked down
Casting a spell (non-offensive ones anyway - didn't think to test with offensive ones)

Now, you cannot do it while "in combat". However, thanks to the engine, it sucks at telling if you are in combat. If you aren't attacking and don't have attacks qued, you can hide in plain sight. Its rediculous really.

I tested this against creatures with our HotU AI, not against players, though when I have fought SDs as a player I have found myself totally unable to really do anything against them - they pop in and out at will.

Against default HotU AI, I could attack, "leave combat", and HiPS. This would stop the creature from attacking me. At first I thought it was regardless of spot, but I realized that actually spot does play a role - sometimes the creature will reacquire you if you have low hide and they have high spot (though sometimes they wont, and you can make good your escape). The creature does seem to lose me for a moment though, but unlike human players it can in fact resume its attacks. Higher hide than spot yielded practical invincibility. I could then attack again, get sneak attacks, HiPS, ad infinitum. All I had to do was press two keys, and boom - I was effectively invincible.

Now, is this a bug? Yes. You should not be able to make multiple attacks in a round and use HiPS. Its an engine bug.

Now, the real question is - how do we report such things to bioware?

[4x4_Ender]

Now, the real question is - how do we report such things to bioware?

We dont, because they will not do anything about it most likely. One very good thing that is already being implemented by the team is to make it so SD's have to get approval by a PC run guild to finish the quest for it, and they must recieve a token that only lvl 10 SD's are able to give out. But, honestly i think more needs to be done than that. The HiPS ability should be moved to a lvl 10 SD ability instead of lvl 1. It is way too overpowered to be available to a low level player, making it far too common.

People say: well, its really not that much more powerful than things like Timestop, or Wail of Banshee, etc. Well, you have to be level 17+ to get those! Big difference from an amazingly broken ability being available at like lvl 7-8.

[Titanium Dragon]

Now, the real question is - how do we report such things to bioware?

We dont, because they will not do anything about it most likely. One very good thing that is already being implemented by the team is to make it so SD's have to get approval by a PC run guild to finish the quest for it, and they must recieve a token that only lvl 10 SD's are able to give out. But, honestly i think more needs to be done than that. The HiPS ability should be moved to a lvl 10 SD ability instead of lvl 1. It is way too overpowered to be available to a low level player, making it far too common.

People say: well, its really not that much more powerful than things like Timestop, or Wail of Banshee, etc. Well, you have to be level 17+ to get those! Big difference from an amazingly broken ability being available at like lvl 7-8.

You report all bugs to bioware. That is a bug. I know there has to be a way, I just don't know it.

[TheElvenKing]

4x4_Ender wrote:

The HiPS ability should be moved to a lvl 10 SD ability instead of lvl 1. It is way too overpowered to be available to a low level player, making it far too common.

I disagree - a Shadowdancer is not a Shadowdancer without the ability to fade in and out of the shadows. That HiPS is included at Level 1 of the PrC makes perfect sense since it is a core ability that separates them from any other stealthy character. However, because of its implementation within the NWN engine it has become a very exploitable feat, especially for CvC situations, for those that choose to abuse the ability. Perhaps more than anything we need to change the attitudes of how a player approaches and uses this ability IC, and therefore try to curb the automatic engage/disengage/stealth/engage/etc. technique that has highlighted the problems with HiPS and left a bad taste in many people's mouths.

[KinX]

may not mean much, but i'm with TEK. Once you start tinkering with classes (in this case a PrC), where will it end? Change it so Paladins can't make Holy Weapons until they hit lev 20? Make it so assassins don't have to be evil?

just leave things as they are and leave it to the players. Besides the last thing anyone here in Avlis wants to be labelled is a "cheater" or "exploiter of bugs". As it stands, every now and then someone points and screams "meta-gamer" when they see another player's level distribution, which is very bad form, if you ask me.

[Titanium Dragon]

may not mean much, but i'm with TEK. Once you start tinkering with classes (in this case a PrC), where will it end? Change it so Paladins can't make Holy Weapons until they hit lev 20? Make it so assassins don't have to be evil?

just leave things as they are and leave it to the players. Besides the last thing anyone here in Avlis wants to be labelled is a "cheater" or "exploiter of bugs". As it stands, every now and then someone points and screams "meta-gamer" when they see another player's level distribution, which is very bad form, if you ask me.

The difference is HiPS is terribly, terribly broken; I'm not blaming the players, I'm blaming bioware.

And STILL no one has told me how to report bugs to bioware. SOMEONE must know.

[KinX]

The difference is HiPS is terribly, terribly broken; I'm not blaming the players, I'm blaming bioware.

in this case, it's an NWN bug that can be exploited. I'm sure everyone here is mature enough not to exploit this bug too badly, right?

And STILL no one has told me how to report bugs to bioware. SOMEONE must know.

don't they have a bug forum? i haven't actually read the Bioware forums in a long time, so i don't know. If i want to read posts from whinging little suck-fucks, i'll read R&R

[Titanium Dragon]

in this case, it's an NWN bug that can be exploited. I'm sure everyone here is mature enough not to exploit this bug too badly, right?

I guess you don't remember Greater Isaac's Missle Storm and the Vortex Plot. Or the +1 item drops.

[Xiaou]

[keikobad]

And STILL no one has told me how to report bugs to bioware. SOMEONE must know.

1. Search the Bioware boards for previous discussions on it. Sometimes Bioware has already taken a stance on it.

2. Come up with a testing scenario that is easy to replicate and list all the steps in detail. The reader must be able to duplicate the EXACT scenario you used (same NPCs, etc.).

3. Post on the Bioware boards about it and ask other if they can replicate it as well.

4. If it still seems like a bug, send an email to nwbugs@bioware.com with your scenario from #2, as well as your hardware/software specs. The NWNconfig utility will handily generate a system report with all the info for you.

If your email doesn't have all that info, it'll probably get deleted off the bat.

[Titanium Dragon]

Thanks Keikobad.

*goes off to do it*

[Bear]

Have been testing it a bit.

You can hide in plain sight while...
Knocked down
Casting a spell (non-offensive ones anyway - didn't think to test with offensive ones)

Ok, being able to HiPS while simultaneously casting a spell is wrong. Doesn't make sense. Most SD don't have many, if any, levels in spell casting so this shouldn't be much of a problem

HiPS while knocked down is not broken. The player isn't dazed, or pinned. Wierd, but not unbelievable.

Now, you cannot do it while "in combat". However, thanks to the engine, it sucks at telling if you are in combat. If you aren't attacking and don't have attacks qued, you can hide in plain sight. Its rediculous really.

Ok, I've read through this a bunch of times, and am still not sure what you're getting at here. If you are saying that the feat is broken because you can attack, then disengage from battle, then HiPS, then attack again... that simple process is not broken.

The PnP version of HiPS contains no limitation about being able to use the ability while in a combat situation. The NWN version of HiPS limits your ability to stike at an opponent and HiPS at the exact same time, but does not limit your ability to use HiPS in a combat situation -- nor would it as there is no such limitation in the paper version.

Against default HotU AI, I could attack, "leave combat", and HiPS. This would stop the creature from attacking me. At first I thought it was regardless of spot, but I realized that actually spot does play a role - sometimes the creature will reacquire you if you have low hide and they have high spot (though sometimes they wont, and you can make good your escape). The creature does seem to lose me for a moment though, but unlike human players it can in fact resume its attacks. Higher hide than spot yielded practical invincibility. I could then attack again, get sneak attacks, HiPS, ad infinitum. All I had to do was press two keys, and boom - I was effectively invincible.

Invincible? Hardly. Let me share with you one small experience from last night that pretty much sums up my entire experience with playing and testing the class for about 6 months.

1) Val enters the sewers of Elysia with 50+ hide;
2) Pack of 1st level rats do not see Val as he walks by
3) Val tosses a set of caltrops down at the rats doing one point damage to each
4) Val, Hides
5) All of the rats come and attack hidden Val.
6) Hidden Val zones to artisians district, and 3 of 5 rats follow him continuing with their attack.

This happens all the flipping time. Creatures that couldn't see you before you dealt them damage can suddenly see you after you've dealt them damage. It happens with rats; spiders; golems; mercenaries; vampires; 1st level skeletons; fire giants; ogres; lizardmen; dire tigers; crag.... pretty much any creature that you deal damage to.

Now, is this a bug? Yes. You should not be able to make multiple attacks in a round and use HiPS. Its an engine bug.

Now, the real question is - how do we report such things to bioware?

I'm not sure if you get any additional attacks b/c of HiPS. Here is what I am typically able to accomplish in one round.

1. Attack from hidden -- Standard Action (not full round full attack);
2. Disengage from battle -- Free Action
3. HiPS -- Standard Action.
4. Monsters attack.

This is all legitimate under PnP.

Sorry if I'm not getting where you're coming from.

Thanks Bear

[maelwydd]

Just a thought. To be able to HIPS you have to select the F1 sneak option (or whatever you may have mapped it to). That is an active action. What is stopping the other person selecting the F2 search option which is also an actice action. As it stands, the SD is making an active action against the opponents passive search rather then the full active search.

It just seems that those without HIPS are looking for ways to nerf it even though it is not even that powerful (from my experience).

And in combat, to use HIPS you have to dissengage before you can engage it. During the dissengage phase you are vulnerable to attacks just as if you would normally dissengage.

I agree with Bear too. Using it in combat does not give me extra attacks. I currently have 4 attacks, 5 with an offhand weapon but I get at best only 2 sneak attacks before the opponent reacts. I have also noticed that some ranged opponents (the bandits in Mikona) just seem to ignore the fact that you have used HIPS and still continue to hit with arrows as normal without any apparent penalty.

[Vanor]

I'm not sure if you get any additional attacks b/c of HiPS.

He's not talking about a extra attack, as if you had a BAB of 6+ or two weapons or anything.

But rather that if you could attack, disengage, HiPS, then attack again with in the same round, that would be wrong according to PnP rules.

Which is not in my experance testing it in a local mod true at all.

[Draegloth]

This happens all the flipping time. Creatures that couldn't see you before you dealt them damage can suddenly see you after you've dealt them damage.

Ya I know. Sometimes you dont even have to deal damage. I had an ogre berserker start chasing me while i had improved invisibility up. It followed me all the way from tnanshi forest border to almost the cornered wererat. Even after I had cast expedious retreat and left it in my dust several areas at least. I stop to look around while still invisible for a bit and what do you know! That flaming ogre comes bounding through the transition screaming "Crush your bones! Dead you be!" Reluctantly had to use my last bit of offensive magic to down him. And now I am in dangerous m'chek with my only invisibility spell cancelled. Oh well.

[Titanium Dragon]

Okay, here's the deal.

If you make more than one attack in a round, that is a full attack action (unless the additional attack was an attack of oppertunity).

HiPSing is another action. You could not, in PnP, take a full attack action and HiPS in the same round. In fact, if HiPS is a standard action, you could not even attack and HiPS in the same round (unless you were hasted).

Other issues:

1) Yes, you COULD technically HiPS in PnP while knocked down... HOWEVER, it wouldn't do you any good. Why? Because you can't move. Even though you "hid", they could still attack you, because they know exactly where you are - lying on the ground in front of them. Therefore, they could still attack you. It doesn't work that way in NWN.

2) Disengaging from combat is not a free action, and doesn't seem to provoke AoOs.

Just a thought. To be able to HIPS you have to select the F1 sneak option (or whatever you may have mapped it t. That is an active action. What is stopping the other person selecting the F2 search option which is also an actice action. As it stands, the SD is making an active action against the opponents passive search rather then the full active search.

Its spot, not search, that opposes hide. And listen.

And in combat, to use HIPS you have to dissengage before you can engage it. During the dissengage phase you are vulnerable to attacks just as if you would normally dissengage.

Except of course you immediately hide, which means (gasp!) that you don't get attacked, despite the fact that this action, even taken while hasted, if you made a full attack you couldn't move, meaning they should still be able to strike at you. If you attack and HiPS in the same combat round, that's way against PnP if you're not hasted, as you only get one (1) standard action and one (1) move-equivalent action per PnP round. A full attack (any more than one attack) is a full-round action, thus no HiPSing for j00 in PnP for that round.

[maelwydd]

OK sorry, their F2 spot/listen skill (or whatever you want to class the F2 function as - spot, search, listen...I thought it was all of them!).

And you cannot immediately hide, you can try but it doesn't always work. You have to dissengage, then when you are a suitable distance away use HIPS. If you do it too quick or too close they can attack without any problems from my experiance. If their passive ability to find you is too low then sure, you will be able to do it over and over in the HIPS, attack, dissengage, manouver, HIPS, attack etc... Again, from my experiance this appears to be an opposed roll.

But if the creatures spot/search/listen skills are not good enough they are just not good enough. That is the point of the skill isn't it? If they are good enough to spot you then the HIPS does nothing. Same as if you tried to hide without the HIPS skill. It gives you a chance to hide.

And isn't there in PnP (which is a lot different from NWN so why do we always have to compare because they are different mediums) the chance to use 5 foot step to dissengage from the oppoent and then use the skill anyway? I don't know, the rules are a lot different so I don't read the rules for the PnP game but the manuals that came with the PC game.

And as I keep saying, it is not so powerful a skill anyway. I got totally stuffed by another PC without being able to do anything about it, HIPS or not, but apparently according to you I am invincible when using the skill. If I was so invincible why were they able to come back and do it again for a 2nd time?

And is this all just talk? Who here has been abused by the HIPS skill? Can we have a practical example of it's abuse rahter then just paper arguments.

[Titanium Dragon]

And you cannot immediately hide, you can try but it doesn't always work. You have to dissengage, then when you are a suitable distance away use HIPS. If you do it too quick or too close they can attack without any problems from my experiance. If their passive ability to find you is too low then sure, you will be able to do it over and over in the HIPS, attack, dissengage, manouver, HIPS, attack etc... Again, from my experiance this appears to be an opposed roll.

In my testing of the skill, you could just stand there, disengage, HiPS instantly, and do it ad-infinitum. Additionally, you could get in several attack and do this in the same round.

But if the creatures spot/search/listen skills are not good enough they are just not good enough. That is the point of the skill isn't it? If they are good enough to spot you then the HIPS does nothing. Same as if you tried to hide without the HIPS skill. It gives you a chance to hide.

The problem is you cannot attack them, even though they have not moved. In PnP, you could just thwack them, knock them down, grapple them, dominate/charm them, ect. In NWN, you just get screwed. If you are standing right in front of me and bring in the shadows to cloak you, I still know you're there and am going to strike at you. NWN doesn't let you do that.

And isn't there in PnP (which is a lot different from NWN so why do we always have to compare because they are different mediums) the chance to use 5 foot step to dissengage from the oppoent and then use the skill anyway? I don't know, the rules are a lot different so I don't read the rules for the PnP game but the manuals that came with the PC game.

Indeed there is. However, a five-foot step doesn't get you very far. Again, this does not address the knocked-down-and-HiPS issue, nor the issue of them beating you on initiative, and not getting their full attacks against you, while you get to attack AND HiPS, which isn't the way it works in PnP.

[Vanor]

which isn't the way it works in PnP.

Things will never work exactly the same way in NWN as they do in PnP. So if your only condition for this being broken, is it doesn't work the same way as in PnP, then you have no real case.

That said, we do as a rule try to get things to work the same on Avlis as they do in PnP, when and where we can. I don't see any way possible for us to do that in this case.

A lot of the things you mentioned, like dominating, grappling, ect... can't be done in NWN, but there's also a lot of things a SD could do in PnP that they can't do in NWN either.

Bottom line is, there are some cases where HiPS could be exploited, and like everything else we expect the player base on Avlis to not do this.

We will not be making any changes in HiPS, or when a SD gets it.

[eNTrOpY]

In my testing of the skill, you could just stand there, disengage, HiPS instantly, and do it ad-infinitum. Additionally, you could get in several attack and do this in the same round.

TD: Were your tests performed on Avlis against the AI that is on Avlis? If not, then your testing of the skill has no bearing on HiPS on Avlis. Several Shadowdancers have have used thsi skill on Avlis and disagree with your assessment of the skill, saying that even after hiding, monsters still attack them, even chase them through area transitions.