The Shadowdancer Epidemic

[4x4_Ender]

That assumes that the mentioned light sources create no shadow. Which is honestly, completely impossible. In fact the more light sources, the more shadows. It doesn't say how big the shadow needs to be, just that one needs be there.

I think you missed his point Vanor. Of course the light source is going to create a shadow somewhere. However, since the radius of the light is greater than 10 ft, there would be no shadows within the radius that the PnP definition for the skill requires. Hence, you cant use it.

[Vanor]

However, since the radius of the light is greater than 10 ft, there would be no shadows within the radius that the PnP definition for the skill requires.

Ok, I'm a Shadow Dancer, and I have a light source. I'm standing next to a tree, say 5 inch's away. Which means, there will most deffently be a shadow with in 10 feet of me. In fact it will be with in 5 or so inches of me, depending on the size of the tree.

Guess what, the tree is going to be casting a shadow, so will the rocks near by, any people, ect... Let me paste the rules for HiPS again...

Hide in Plain Sight: Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

Tell me where in there exactly it says I need to enter the shadow to hide? Or that a light source will stop me from useing HiPS?

It says quite clearly I can hide, in the open without anything to hide behind.

[Vidboi]

Ug, the amount of whining in the 6 page rant is simply amazing...

"A character may add new classes as he progresses in levels. The class abilities from a character's different classes add together to determine the multiclass character's total abilities. Multiclassing improves a character's versatility at the expense of focus."

The 3rd Edition PH goes on to give an example regarding a rogue deciding they would like to "expand their repitoire" and take a level of wizard to be able to use spells. Now, what if that was all they wanted to do? Just cast first level spells... say for the knock spell? How is that cheesy? How is that metagaming? If you decide your character wants to take just one level in fighter - just to toughen them up - HOW ON EARTH DOES IT MATTER??

Get a grip people... I didn't want to learn all programming languages, so I just decided to learn Perl. I stopped there. I no longer pursued a career in programming. That's it, that's all.

If someone wants to take one level in something, why on earth does everyone want to bitch about it? Every other month, someone drudges up something to bitch about. Last time, it was mages vs. fighters and how mages can cast devastating spells even after they have been killed and have no gear, but fighters can't do squat... Well... that's true. SO FUCKING WHAT?

Oh, no... this spell, or that spell is not like PnP, you should fix it... yet the same people are bitching that Avlis toned down the True Seeing spell - which DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO SEE HIDDEN CHARACTERS AT ALL. No bonus, nothing. They'll cry to the high heavens that the TS spell is all fucked up now... which they are correct about, just not for the reasons they espouse.

What a bunch of useless drivel. Play the fucking game, quit your bitching and leave everyone else alone. Retarded, absolutely retarded. I've come to realize that I've spent about $120 on a GAME that is filled with children.

[Titanium Dragon]

We would like to have more shadowdancers, with good hide skills. If someone of you are interested... We can train you in this art. It can be most useful when batteling mages or other ones, but you need to be a group and cooperate on one target at a time to be most effective.

This is what I see as being wrong with SDs. This is OOC information, and I will shoot anyone who uses it ICly, and am leery about posting it, but it proves my point. It shows what people think of this ability, of this prestige class.

This isn't RPing a connection to shadows and deception. This is "take this class because it gives you nifty abilities." I don't have anything against the person who posted this. But its just... not... right. THIS is the problem we have been talking about.

What is a shadowdancer? Masters of stealth and deception, linked to the shadows and darkness. I don't have a problem with people being shadowdancers... what I have an issue with is people being rogues and rangers with Hide in Plain Sight.

And Vanor, supernatural abilities are magical abilities per PnP rules. Extraordinary abilities (barbarian rage, extra speed, evasion, improved evasion, ect.) are not magical. Supernatural abilities are magically based and do not work in magicless areas.

EDIT: I might add that the person who posted this has something like three shadowdancer levels. However, it is just the way this post is likely to be taken that is problematic. I remember some nine months ago people talking about how they'd take one level of shadowdancer for the HiPS ability, and look at what's happening now?

[FunkOdyssey]

What a bunch of useless drivel. Play the fucking game, quit your bitching and leave everyone else alone. Retarded, absolutely retarded. I've come to realize that I've spent about $120 on a GAME that is filled with children.

Good post, refreshing in its simplicity. If only the matter were that simple. The ideal of minding one's business has to be balanced with the need to address serious problems when they arise. If you cannot handle the discussion then don't partake in it.

[Titanium Dragon]

However, since the radius of the light is greater than 10 ft, there would be no shadows within the radius that the PnP definition for the skill requires.

Ok, I'm a Shadow Dancer, and I have a light source. I'm standing next to a tree, say 5 inch's away. Which means, there will most deffently be a shadow with in 10 feet of me. In fact it will be with in 5 or so inches of me, depending on the size of the tree.

Guess what, the tree is going to be casting a shadow, so will the rocks near by, any people, ect... Let me paste the rules for HiPS again...

Hide in Plain Sight: Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

Tell me where in there exactly it says I need to enter the shadow to hide? Or that a light source will stop me from useing HiPS?

It says quite clearly I can hide, in the open without anything to hide behind.

Yes, but you need shadows, and not your own. Now, consider - is there a shadow on the side of the tree facing you? No, its going to be on the other side. Moreover, if it is daylight out, the shadow will be practically nonexistent outside of a forest/city. Sure, my sofa is casting a shadow of sorts, but its certainly not anything you could ever even have a remote chance of hiding in. I think that by shadow, they mean the black thing in an alleyway. They mean a dark shadow, not a pansy daylight shadow cast by me. At least, that's what it looks like from the illustration and is the way everyone I know IRL took it.

[Vidboi]

What a bunch of useless drivel. Play the fucking game, quit your bitching and leave everyone else alone. Retarded, absolutely retarded. I've come to realize that I've spent about $120 on a GAME that is filled with children.

Good post, refreshing in its simplicity. If only the matter were that simple. The ideal of minding one's business has to be balanced with the need to address serious problems when they arise. If you cannot handle the discussion then don't partake in it.

Oh, I'm sorry... I must have missed the part of this thread that involved curing cancer or something... It might have been buried between the posts about telling others how to play and the ones bitching about how someone has something they don't. Remind me again where the "serious problems" are in this game?

[FunkOdyssey]

Its all relative, I suppose. Some really constructive things have come out of threads like this before, as hard as it may be to believe.

I hope you are not getting worked up here, its just a discussion about a game right? (look I can bold that word too, lol)

[Redloved]

[radiostatic]We interupt this hijack to bring you back to the point of this thread[/radiostatic]

My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10. This will accomplish many significant things:

- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team

- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability

- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.

If there is a way to make this happen, I think that this is the best solution. Level 10 seems like a good level to gain this feat.

[Morgoth]

Sorry from what I know of any "supernatural" ability is that it is not magical its supernatural guess it if was it would be called a "magical" ability not "supernatural".... if it was magical it would be a spell.. example the druid wildshape is supernatural... they are actually changing themselves into animals which is different then the spell polymorph the effects are the same but one is magical and the other is not... you can not dispel wildshape, nor HiPS, or the monk's damage reduction, therefore not magical. TS should not work.. And who says there would not be shadows if you cast a light spell. The more points that generate light the better. The only thing you need is one obstacle for any point of light to make a shadow... so you have your staff in your right hand there would be a shadow on your left side because you (part of your body) would be blocking that light... your helm generates some light.. Your staff or the tree you just passed also will produce a shadow.

Sorry maybe a little heated but you mages and I am one of them too, have handfuls of useful spells if someone were to take one away let alone only adjust one of them you would still have lots to fall back on. The shadowdancer only has a few tricks... And, that is what we are talking about changing one of the spells and look at the reaction it gets... so I guess yes shadowdancers out there should be screaming bloody murder.

I will give you one point if the shadowdancer themselves has the light that is a different story and I agree that they should not be able to HiPS, they are given the Darkvision for that reason (though I have not seen a big difference with or without (that?s another story though) anyway I thought that?s as it stands now it only incurs a negative to the attempt to hide.

Again sorry is it hot in here or is it just me *hehe*

[Vergilius]

Whew, there is a lot here. Page 2 when I left this morning, page 7 when I get back. No further comment really. This SD discussion came up a few times before SOU and before the PrC was implemented. It wasn't this extensive, but the predictions have held true. People pointed out, we'd have an overabundance of shadowdancers. There are. People pointed out that a lot would take just one level in the class. There are.

The issue largely is: Is this what we really want in the community? And if not, what can actually be done about it? Really, this is exactly the kind of topic that if it doesn't have a thread on the team boards by now, its ripe for posting, let the team handle it as what the players have posted is enough evidence of concern. As always, they have been fair to all involved and we could trust them to be so again, both to those who have SD levels and to those who do not.

Its all relative, I suppose. Some really constructive things have come out of threads like this before, as hard as it may be to believe.

I hope you are not getting worked up here, its just a discussion about a game right? (look I can bold that word too, lol)

very good words Funk.

[Titanium Dragon]

Supernatural abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. This far-reaching category includes the basilisk's petrifying stare, the monk's ki strike, and the ghoul's paralytic touch. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistence or dispel magic. However, supernatural abilities still do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field).

Q.E.D.

As far as I can recall, True Seeing penetrates illusions and other forms of magical concealment. Yes or no?

[Bear]

[radiostatic]We interupt this hijack to bring you back to the point of this thread[/radiostatic]

My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10. This will accomplish many significant things:

- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team

- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability

- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.

If there is a way to make this happen, I think that this is the best solution. Level 10 seems like a good level to gain this feat.

So....you want me to ditch an ability that I've spent months RolePlaying... and wait until I'm 32level before I can take it again? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Frankly, this is a terrible idea. You will metagame a change on all of the players who have invested 6 months of roleplay in their characters. I'm not talking about a minor change (i.e., tone down the number of missles in one of your arsenal of spells), but a major character altering change.

Did you folks even stop and consider what impact this will have on the people who have spent months and months preparing for and roll playing this concept? I think Vergilius did, but otherwise it certainly doesn't appear so.

Just FYI, because nobody really seems to care, I've invested an amazing amount of time and effort into my character in order to justify taking the HiPS ability:

1. I've invested skill points to justify my character;
2. I've invested feats that I never would have taken....to justify my character.
3. I've invested months of roleplaying to justify my character and why this makes sense for him.

You think I am cheezing b/c I took one level of SD? You don't know me or what I've done. More importantly, it isn't your position to question my motives. If the DMs want me to justify why I've only taken one level in ShadowDancer, I am eager to do so. In fact, you could look it up b/c I posted it months ago.

I have built up great respect for many of the people who have posted since I joined in 2002, but the thoughtless disregard for the impact this will have on the players who have invested months of in-character time justifying this change leaves me ashamed. I see no sense of community in this 7 page string.

Again....you want me to ditch an ability that I've spent months RP'ng... and wait until I'm 32level before I can take it again? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Bear

[FunkOdyssey]

Who's to say people that have HIPS already couldnt be grandfathered in, and just commit to eventually taking 7-10 shadowdancer levels? No reason it couldnt be implemented that way. Then it would have no negative impact on existing shadowdancers.

[Titanium Dragon]

Bear, as I recall, you made your post back when the level cap was twenty and you were already 18th level, and would have to spend your 19th level on that last feat, thus you could only possibly take one level of shadowdancer.

[Bear]

Bear, as I recall, you made your post back when the level cap was twenty and you were already 18th level, and would have to spend your 19th level on that last feat, thus you could only possibly take one level of shadowdancer.

Oh...thanks for the reminder... It was back in MAY 2003, that I started planning this concept and working toward it. I guess it's more like 10 months that I've been rollplaying this.

Anyway... my IC justification for taking one level of it was directly below the post you were refering to....

Bear

[sinn]

[radiostatic]We interupt this hijack to bring you back to the point of this thread[/radiostatic]

My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10. This will accomplish many significant things:

- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team

- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability

- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.

If there is a way to make this happen, I think that this is the best solution. Level 10 seems like a good level to gain this feat.

So....you want me to ditch an ability that I've spent months RolePlaying... and wait until I'm 32level before I can take it again? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Frankly, this is a terrible idea. You will metagame a change on all of the players who have invested 6 months of roleplay in their characters. I'm not talking about a minor change (i.e., tone down the number of missles in one of your arsenal of spells), but a major character altering change.

Did you folks even stop and consider what impact this will have on the people who have spent months and months preparing for and roll playing this concept? I think Vergilius did, but otherwise it certainly doesn't appear so.

Just FYI, because nobody really seems to care, I've invested an amazing amount of time and effort into my character in order to justify taking the HiPS ability:

1. I've invested skill points to justify my character;
2. I've invested feats that I never would have taken....to justify my character.
3. I've invested months of roleplaying to justify my character and why this makes sense for him.

You think I am cheezing b/c I took one level of SD? You don't know me or what I've done. More importantly, it isn't your position to question my motives. If the DMs want me to justify why I've only taken one level in ShadowDancer, I am eager to do so. In fact, you could look it up b/c I posted it months ago.

I have built up great respect for many of the people who have posted since I joined in 2002, but the thoughtless disregard for the impact this will have on the players who have invested months of in-character time justifying this change leaves me ashamed. I see no sense of community in this 7 page string.

Again....you want me to ditch an ability that I've spent months RP'ng... and wait until I'm 32level before I can take it again? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Bear

I agree with you here Bear.. it is not fair to take things away from players... HiPs.. or anything.

Still I also think NWN fucked up with the whole shadowdancer thing

As for Avlis.. I think the only way to make this work is to let people take SD and NOT change SDs powers. HiPs must stay and CAN NOT change in any major way. Changing it will punish far to many people that have already taken SD levels.

People need to realize that the team looked at SD before putting it in. The team wanted to put it in (as is)..... and SD was put in. SO you need to deal with it. Maybe the team is planing on adding major spot and listen items for sale.. I dont know... but maybe the team will work it out. Maybe there is going to be some crazy NPC that runs around say " HEY HEY they is a shadowdancer over there hiding! "

I have read enough.. and I am just glad I dont have any shadowdancers pissed at Sinn and looking for some CvC time

[Titanium Dragon]

I somehow doubt they anticipated this.

And Bear, your IC reason is...

"I want HiPS"

I read down further. "Forest Lord" i.e. "a PrC that does not exist on Avlis so I'm going to cheese it by taking one level of shadowdancer"

"this is problematic given that the back-ground write up for the dancer makes them appear more of a gypsy like clan?"

I think you just said it.

If Orl wanted a Forest-lord type PrC, he'd have made it, no?

[TheElvenKing]

I'll stop taking my levels in Shadowdancer when people playing army characters stop taking clerical levels for the self-buffing advantages... period.

[Brick]

As for Avlis.. I think the only way to make this work is to let people take SD and NOT change SDs powers. HiPs must stay and CAN NOT change in any major way. Changing it will punish far to many people that have already taken SD levels.

How's it a punishment? Presumably they took Shadowdancer for roleplay purposes, not for powergaming purposes. So the loss of HiPS is no big deal. Right?

Right?

*awkward silence*

[Brick]

I'll stop taking my levels in Shadowdancer when people playing army characters stop taking clerical levels for the self-buffing advantages... period.

Another epidemic that is being adressed... there's a post by Tindertwiggy somewhere, in General Discussion, I believe, insisting that clerics become more pious. And insinuating punishments for those who don't. Or maybe it was Deider.

Really, HiPS is just one entry on the list of poorly implemented aspects of NWN, along with Knockdown, Bigbys spells, and yes, cleric tanks. The current topic is shadowdancers so let's not change the subject.

[Bear]

I somehow doubt they anticipated this.

And Bear, your IC reason is...

"I want HiPS"

I read down further. "Forest Lord" i.e. "a PrC that does not exist on Avlis so I'm going to cheese it by taking one level of shadowdancer"

"this is problematic given that the back-ground write up for the dancer makes them appear more of a gypsy like clan?"

I think you just said it.

If Orl wanted a Forest-lord type PrC, he'd have made it, no?

I wanted to be a forest lord.... The world doesn't have it.... So I looked for something that was close to what I wanted and have spent the last 10 fucking months RP'ng the hell out of the concept and my character.

Once you're a DM, and can actually watch how I roleplay, I'll care about how you "think" I RP my character. Until then STFU.

Bear

[Brick]

That sounds like borderline cheesing to me Bear.

And nobody's talking about your roleplay. Or you being a shadowdancer. We're talking about HiPS.

[FunkOdyssey]

Revised suggestion, after consideration of the plight of existing shadowdancers:

My suggestion is to change it so HIPS is given at level 7-10. This will accomplish many significant things:

- Separate the real shadowdancers from the HIPS chasing metagamers without requiring evaluation of each PC by the team

- Require a real investment and sacrifice to obtain the Shadowdancer's most prized ability

- Reward accomplished shadowdancers for continuing to hone their skills, instead of giving every novice the best SD ability and rewarding those who drop it afterward.

Existing shadowdancers below the new requisite level to gain HIPS (7-10 range) would be "grandfathered in", and retain the HIPS ability. However, they would need to achieve this new requisite level of shadowdancer over the course of their adventuring career (sometime before level 40).

[Ziopoth]

Why is it always the same people the bitch, moan and whine about things? What about the overwelming and devistating critical and the fighter/cleric mix, lets get rid of that too. Again, Bigby's is way over powered, lets get rid of that.

Guess what, it's a fucking game, you don't like, stop fucking playing. You don't like my character or it's build TOUGH SHIT, play your own fucking character. Grow the fuck up learn to deal with it or get the fuck out.