Question about double weapons.

4x4_Ender · Post by **4x4_Ender** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:16 am

When you use a double weapon you get the same penalties to your attack bonus that you do when dual wielding. So, do the ambudextrious and two-weapon fighting skills give the same compensations for attack bonus when you wield a double weapons as they do when you dual wield?? If not, why the hell isnt there a double-weapon skill like there is with the two-weapon fighting??

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:23 am

Thats the theory according to the PHB. I would expect it would operate the same in NWN.

Pyracantha · Post by **Pyracantha** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:32 am

Double weapons operate the same as dual-wielding. Ambidexterity, Two-weapon Fighting, and Improved TWF all give the same benefits for double weapons. The advantage is that the off-hand of a double weapon counts as a small weapon, but has a large weapon's damage. Also, if you take weapon focus, improved critical, or specialization, they improve both your primary and off-hand when using a double weapon.

But if you do the math, at higher strength levels and BAB of 4 attacks per round, a greatsword still dishes more damage than a double weapon, with a higher attack rating without the need to take exotic and the 3 dual-wield feats.

On the other hand (no pun intended), double weapons look really cool

I love them, but usually can't afford them.

kagouro2003 · Post by **kagouro2003** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:03 am

Except in the case of extra damage per attack, like in the case of a rogue's sneak. In that case number of attacks is more important. There used to be a very old posting of analysis on the subject...

_LuCkY_ · Post by **_LuCkY_** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:35 am

Also the advantage of a two handed weapon such as a greatsword lies in the fact that the strength bonus is doubled. If you don't have a pretty high strength a double weapon can be better.

Oh and there's of course weapon finesse which often plays a role with dual wielding (not with those big double weapons of course)

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:07 am

Not doubled, 1.5x Str modifier.

But yeah... you get the extra attack from Improved TWF, and you do 1.5x Str damage... hence, double weapons kick major ass.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:15 am

_LuCkY_ wrote:Also the advantage of a two handed weapon such as a greatsword lies in the fact that the strength bonus is doubled. If you don't have a pretty high strength a double weapon can be better.

Oh and there's of course weapon finesse which often plays a role with dual wielding (not with those big double weapons of course)

very good points. Rogues often dual wield for this reason.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:52 am

Double weapons are treated as duel wielding two weapons.

All feats (ambidextarity, double wielding and improved double wielding) apply

The primary attack gets a 1.5x multiplier to your strength for damage but the off hand gets only half your strength bonus added. But the off hand counts as a light weapon which reduces the penelties signficantly.

So with ambidex, and duel wielding you get a -2, -2 to your BAB at the end of the day.

As weapon focus and specialization would apply to both attacks you can gain som substantial advantages. But the number of fighters with a 15 dex is fairly rare, and ambidex is the biggest reduction in the penelty.

A good combination is to duel wield with weapon finesse capable weapons my bard with a massive dex bonus and an item that granted weapon finesse did an amazing job with 2 daggers (very nice daggers mind you) due to the fact the attack bonus used dexterity.

Pyracantha · Post by **Pyracantha** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:45 am

Uh, folks, I think you'll find that the "forehand" attack of a double weapon (e.g. doubleaxe) is only 100% of damage modifier, not 150%. So the primary attacks with a double weapon include 100% of the damage modifier, while the off-hand attacks enjoy 50% of the modifier.

You only get the 150% if you are wielding a greatsword or greataxe or other "normal" 2-handed weapon with two hands.

If I'm wrong on this - if primary attacks for double weapons are 150% of damage modifier, please point me to a citation.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:32 am

I think the math for the above people is as follows:

primary hand: 100%

Secondary hand 50%

total strength modifier: 150%

Of course, it is basically a moot point to compare double bladed to two-handed weapons. You have to actually hit twice to get the full 150% on the double-bladed, and you do it at -2 down from the roll you'd be making with the two-handed.

_LuCkY_ · Post by **_LuCkY_** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:33 am

Again as I said the biggest advantage of dual wielding lies when you aren't that strong, so the strength multiplier doesn't matter much. Also you get an extra attack and with improved two weapon fighting two attacks. Rogues for instance would want to have as many attacks as possible just for the sneak attacks. They often don't care much how much damage they do with the weapon, but they just want to hit as much as possible and as often as possible. NWN allows you to do 3 to 4 sneak attacks before someone is aware of you (if you have 6 attacks per round that is).

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:41 pm

Is there a two sided weapon that a character is able to use the weapon finese feat with?

Vipact · Post by **Vipact** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:04 pm

No.

This is the weapon list for weapon finesse: dagger, handaxe, kama, kukri, light hammer, mace, rapier, short sword, sickle, and unnarmed strike.

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 11:13 pm

Note however, that every double weapon's "offhand" blade will use the weapon finesse feat.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 11:40 pm

eNTrOpY wrote:Note however, that every double weapon's "offhand" blade will use the weapon finesse feat.

I didn't know that although it makes some sense. Makes me wonder about some other things though.

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:12 am

To end the debate. Why is a double weapons any different than Dual Weilding?

1- Mainhand weapon does full damage, No attack bonus penalty with Ambidexterity. (Make a level 1 char with exotic weapons and see for yourself.)

2- With all the dual wielding feats, offhand will have a -2 attack bonus, mainhand will do full attack rating, and you get an extra offhand attack, just like Dual Weilding.

3- Offhand blade is affected by weapon finnesse.

4- Offhand blade does FULL DAMAGE. Do you know of any light offhand weapons that do 1d8 damage? I didn't think so. They only get 50% of your Str modifier tacked on, however.

5- With Disarm/Improved Disarm, a double weapon acts like a Large weapon for size purposes, thus you disarm far more effectively (+6) compared to a dual weilder using a medium and light weapon.

Thus, at the tradeoff of 1 feat, (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) you get an overall superior single weapon compared to dual wielding 2 weapons, at least in terms of total damage over time.

Edit: Bioware shit out on coding dual weapons properly, so forget the attack bonus bit... same as Dual Weilding, which is actually incorrect.

Vergilius · Post by **Vergilius** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:24 am

I just checked this

the main weapon attack rating still suffers the -2 to hit. Now in PNP, if you chose to forgo the offhand attack, it wouldn't, but the NWN engine doesn't let you do anything but keep attacking in dual fashion.

also, while testing this, I also looked at an old bug with the NWN engine. IF you take weapon focus with a double weapon, the bonus only applies to primary hand. Everyone should be aware of that as well.