Build Advice Please - prereqs for Champion

[Nighthawk4]

Plans for my Bard.

Is there any way to determine how many levels of Fighter will be required to give a Bard the prereqs for Champion please?

———
Kara Le’lyn - past, present & future.

(An IC description with added OOC comments)

Kara is a Half-Nymph, a charming, friendly and likeable person, not very strong physically but gifted with a skill in song and performance, plus some arcane ability.

(High CHA but low in other stats, plus all Bard levels so far)

She worships O’Ma. She always has.

(Deity selected at character creation).

The events she witnessed recently have left her devastated. All the joy has been driven from her heart. She has lost her self confidence. How can she sing and dance without feeling any hope or joy?

She is broken as a Bard. However, perhaps as she works and as time passes, she will regain her mojo and try singing again. She will always be a Bard, though perhaps never as strong again as she was.

(Some Bard levels will be removed to enable multiclassing)

She vows to serve His memory in a different way.

Unfortunately, she is a complete wimp. If she tried to sign up as a Champion now, they would laugh. Like Steve Rogers before the serum.

So she needs to beef up, build some muscles. Hit the gym, lift some weights, do a few 10k runs or triathlons.

(Take some levels in Fighter to gain the prereqs).

Eventually, she may become physically strong enough to be accepted as a Champion.

(Prereqs completed)

No doubt there is a Qualification Exam or test.

(HW unlock).

Then she will learn and improve as a Champion.

In time she may regain her self-confidence and begin to sing again.
——-
Comments

Some will suggest a refresh back to level 1, or at least level 20. I don’t want to do this. This character is flawed and so is the build, so it makes more sense for her not to be an ideal power build.

I think for her to “succeed” in her endeavour to become a Champion, she needs at least ten levels of that. I have always felt that anyone dedicated enough to qualify as a PrC or HW should be skilled enough to train others, so she needs the PrC unlock.

Regrettably, I don’t know how many levels it will take to get the prereqs. She has Skill Focus: Heal, but there is a chance she will lose that when I strip some Bard levels.

So we require:

10 levels of Champion,
2 or 4 levels of Fighter (is there any way to verify how many?)

I don’t want to remove any more than essential.

That leaves us with:

Bard 26/ Others 4/ Champion 10.

If it doesn’t need 4 levels of Fighter to gain the prereqs, she might have a spare level to play with.

[Darkfire]

Feats: Skill Focus: Heal, Weapon Focus: Short Sword, Two-Weapon Fighting (The Ranger's "Dual-Wield" feat will work as well, instead of Two-Weapon Fighting)

Off the top of my head, all of those feats can be taken during bard levels so there's no "have to take fighter levels to get them. Fighter is nice though, buildwise and perks aside, because of extra bonus feats. So you can get the Champion feats faster because of fighter and you just getting more feats, but fighter is not required to get those feats. There are a lot of nice feats to pick up with bard, so utilizing the fighter levels to get your non-bard feats (pre-reqs, knockdowns, blind fighting, etc.) is probably a good idea to help ensure you still can take your song enhancing feats.

I'd get yourself up to 16 militant levels. It'd be a waste imo to get to 14 (10 champion, 4 fighter) because you have a lot to lose (the next tier of militant bonuses) but no real comparative gain by having more bard levels since it's so close. If the initial build was still pretty far away from 16th militant and there were other goals you had in mind, it'd be a different story. 2 fighter levels don't really do anything besides snatching up a couple bonus feats. I'd have to run the whole build to see if you were really starving on feats or if you'd still be fine deviating from fighter. Assuming you're not starving, you'd probably benefit a lot more from 2 levels of rogue and just fully commit to not getting those 16 militant levels. (e.g., 28 bard, 2 rogue, 10 champion) so you can pick up evasion or something. If you're doing 4 fighter levels again, you might as well do at least 2 more for 1.) militant and 2.) double weapon specs.


What I'd consider in some combo:

21 to 23 Bard (lasting inspiration)
6 to 8 fighter
10 to 13 Champion

You wanna make sure your ending levels land on bonus feat levels when you can because it all adds up. Of course you need at least 10 HW levels here so I'm including it here just because.

Fighter: 6, 8
Bard: 21, 23
Champion: 10, 13

I'd do one of these 4 spreads off the top of my head:

21 Bard, 8 Fighter, 11 Champion (2 bonus feats)
22 Bard, 8 Fighter, 10 Champion (2 bonus feats)
23 Bard, 6 Fighter, 11 Champion (2 bonus feats)
21 Bard, 6 Fighter, 13 Champion (3 bonus feats)

With additional fighter levels you can also have epic weapon spec in both short sword and long sword.


Soap box time / unsolicited buildsplainin: (to NH4 but to everyone in general just cuz I love build talks and build theorycrafting)

A good build isn't subscribing to only power builds and combos. Make deliberate choices. It's really just about properly committing to your choices to get the most out of them. 75% of nothing is the same as 25% of nothing. If you're not getting a return out of a partial investment of classes, feats, choices, etc. and you get 75% of nothing three times, you're losing out on a lot. The only time to make sacrifices (e.g., picking 2 levels of fighter over 2 levels of something like rogue) is if it's simply impossible to get all the necessary feats to get that 100% of something else where and you have to lean into the frontloaded bonus feats of two fighter levels. Then you're investing those levels to obtain that 100% somewhere else. If it's not an investment towards a 100%, it's a waste.

[Nighthawk4]

I confess that, apart from the build and RP aspect, in the back of my mind is a dread of the idea of just erasing six levels, never mind eight or twelve.

So, on the one hand I am happy to sit around and enjoy roleplaying with a low level character. However, once we get higher levels, it gets tedious not actually being able to achieve anything.

Also, once we have a plan, we need to develop that plan.

Hope that makes sense. Can’t believe the “Roleplay is Everything” advocate is actually saying that.

[Nighthawk4]

It just occurred to me that the situation with Kara makes her unplayable for me, so effectively she is lost anyway. Therefore, if by removing some levels, as long as I feel it is appropriate, I get the character back, that has to be an improvement.

Admittedly she will be lower level than she is now, but she may be enjoyable to play again.

Plus of course, I get a Champion to play and it’s still much better than working up from level one and having to develop a bond with a new backstory.

How about:
24 Bard/ 2 Rogue or Fighter/ 14 Champion
24 Bard/ 4 Rogue or Fighter/ 12 Champion
24 Bard/ 6 Rogue or Fighter/ 10 Champion

There’s no guarantee I will live long enough to get that far anyway, but then none of us has any warranty.

[Darkfire]

24 Bard, 6 Fighter, 10 Champion probably has just as much use as the 23 Bard, 6 Fighter, 11 Champion. The 11th level of Champion doesn't contribute (or take away) from anything really, besides a small boost. You can shift that into an equivalently small boost into bard.

Someone else can double check that, but at first glance it seems pretty solid. And if you like it more that is what is important.

[Nighthawk4]

Good point.

If I am unhappy with the result, the character gets neglected, which achieves nothing.

[Nighthawk4]

We have a winner.

24/6/10 it is.

[Nighthawk4]

So it begins…….

What next?

[Ambrosia]

You would have to submit an account refresh request via redmine. Either before or at the same time as you do that, you'll want to complete in character training to become a Champion so we can coordinate your final training session for your unlock with your refresh request.

Basically

Ooc - follow the refresh guidelines for a refresh request. (required)

IN Character- post on the O'ma Follow boards Champion sheet your interest in training if you haven't already and start your in-character training. This is because Refreshes do not automatically grant PRC unlocks. (required)

Also please submit an official Character Goal Database form to the Event Team IF you want us to have background and goal information on file for plot reasons. (optional)

[Nighthawk4]

Redmine #3566

IC Post done

CGD Post done

[Nighthawk4]

In the immortal words of Lt. Columbo, “One Last Thing”

As Kara is a Half-Nymph, a kind of woodland creature, perhaps she might turn to her friends there to gain help in learning to fight.

What are the pros and cons of using Ranger instead of Fighter?

Less bonus feats, but she gets dual-wield automatically, as well as martial. Does Ranger provide the armour skills she will need as a Champion?

Ranger seems more appropriate in character, although I will probably still go for Fighter.

Comments please?