Item Level Restrictions - Pros and Cons

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:46 am

Because I'm bored and curious... what do all of you think of item level restrictions?

I see them as both a good and bad thing. What is good about item level restrictions? It confines the better equipment to higher level characters, making them even more powerful than lower level characters. It also confines characters to weaker magical items longer. It keeps powerful items out of the hands of low-levels.

However, it has definite downsides. As a DM, you may have difficulty rewarding them, or want to give them an item that they cannot yet use. It also is a bit unrealistic, especially when it comes to magical weapons; theoretically they should be easier to use, not harder. Finally, it makes levels less significant, which can be a good thing in that a well-rewarded low-level character can be a match for a high-level character who has been less rewarded by the DMs, and makes them better in general.

Your thoughts?

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:53 am

a low level character who has high lvl equipment finds no challence at all in the monsters designed to opose him. He will be able to opose significantly higher lvl foes and thus reap in xp at unbelievable rates... powerleveling in effect.

Make a test: equip a char lvl 7 with three greater belts, ward of the brave, +3 armor, +3 tower shield, +3 amu of armor, +3 cloak,+2 weapon.... etc.. and send him/her into the LRC...

and lo and behold, the power of twinking and no item restriction... (I would not recommend char lower then lvl 7 anyway, as the dmg wich gets through the belts will eradicate you still...

you may take asome time to kill beetles, as you don't do dmg fast enough, but... it's sad, actually.

I am for item lvl restriction...
cause without, you'll see lvl 5 chars with tolgarath's sword, ac 41 and an ego size 500 in a body size 25

Khaelindra · Post by **Khaelindra** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:27 am

I don't think DM's will have trouble rewarding characters because of the level restrictions. Firstly the restrictions function as a measure of what you should and should not give, secondly there is no reason why one should only be given items that can be used immediately. I received a +2 wisdom amulet (clvl 8 required) at lvl 5, and Nastassiou's knuckle (clvl 11 required) at level 9. No problem with that, it just gave me something extra to look forward to. When you're still 10 levels too low, it might be overdoing it, but a few levels...
One problem it might cause (because i know one person who told me it's what he did when he had received an item with clvl 17 required when he was clvl 13) is that some people will start XP-farming instead of just playing, just to be able to use the item. It's a variant of Vanor's powergame-description of "respawning monsters to get the last 50 xp to gain a lvl when you should have been in bed an hour ago": "doing xp-rich areas over and over to get the last level you need to be able to use that wonderful item you received". Only this is crossing the line then i think.

Mickey

Nightface · Post by **Nightface** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:23 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:a low level character who has high lvl equipment finds no challence at all in the monsters designed to opose him. He will be able to opose significantly higher lvl foes and thus reap in xp at unbelievable rates... powerleveling in effect.

Make a test: equip a char lvl 7 with three greater belts, ward of the brave, +3 armor, +3 tower shield, +3 amu of armor, +3 cloak,+2 weapon.... etc.. and send him/her into the LRC...

and lo and behold, the power of twinking and no item restriction... (I would not recommend char lower then lvl 7 anyway, as the dmg wich gets through the belts will eradicate you still...

you may take asome time to kill beetles, as you don't do dmg fast enough, but... it's sad, actually.

I am for item lvl restriction...
cause without, you'll see lvl 5 chars with tolgarath's sword, ac 41 and an ego size 500 in a body size 25

Starslayer, I'd agree with your comments, except for the fact that the example cited is a bit extreme. Take that 7th level character you suggested, equip him with all the toys a normal characetr of Avlis would have, with one, maybe two nice pieces of DM-love, and I doubt you'll have created a power-levelling monster.

Removing item-level restrictions does not automatically create a magic item free-for-all, unless people start seriously twinking out there characters with old, unused equipment.

If anything, a low level character running around with large amounts of high-value items would probably chase away a DM, on the basis that the person is either well-loved already by generous players or other DMs, or is a total twink.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 1:14 pm

during my week off avlis I played on a number of servers including one which had no item level restrictions...the monsters of course were boosted to the hilt so 1st level character in +4 leather armor and wearing boots of speed could not do a standard run and shoot against zombies. Similier character killed several zombies and a zombie lord in a moving battle which included running back and forth past the zombie lord with no difficulty on a server with item restrictions.

Item restrictions are fine. They harm no one, and they keep the DMs from having to boost the power of every single creature to the point where if you do accidentally go where you should not you will instantly die.

Also item level restrictions keep items in check. Otherwise you could have players using the balors sword...a lvl 41 item or so.

With no item level restrictions my 2nd level character in Avlis would have had a +3 battle axe due to a nice high level character. So no restriction would mean that you would now have low level characters which have high level gear...which is decidely unfair and majorly unbalancing.

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:07 pm

Having played on worlds with and without ILR, here is my opinion:

If you are in a "high magic" environment, ILR is not just a good thing, it's an absolute necessity. I played on one world with a lot of high powered items (haste, immunities, etc.) and no ILR. You would see 1st level characters with AC's in the 40's perma hasted and immune to mind and death magic killing ettins

In a "low magic" environment like Avlis, though, I don't think it's as much of a necessity. None of my characters has found anything beyond +1, except for some armor and a shield he bought at a store. Without ILR, my current characters ac would be a little bit higher, maybe 2 points, and that would be about it.

You still run the risk of "twinking", handing good gear from a high lvl character to a low level one and then power- levelling the Low level character, though. Even here, with such limited magic items, twinking would be an issue if there was no ILR.

I say, leave it in. If a DM wants to reward you with an item you can't use, go ahead and do it. When the player can finally use his shiny new tow, he'll appreciate it even more.

storminj · Post by **storminj** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:15 pm

Can a rogues or Bards UMD make up for levels? I thought the answer is yes but I am unsure.

I think item level restrictions do not necessarily make in game sense. Whay can one person wear a suit of magical armor while another not? or a sword? I guiess the more complicate items could be rationalized that that you need a more powerful person to approach and use such an item.

Now on the balance issue I think that Item level restriction should be left to Orls view. If it was a truly low magic level world then who needs it but since avlis has a decent amount of magic then there is a balance that needs to be acheived. I remember getting +3 leather from a friend though a laborious RP session and had to wait two levels to use. I was really excited when I finally could use it but I did try to power play that last 1000 exp so I could. I feel a little guilty about it.

marauder · Post by **marauder** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:21 pm

If we could all be trusted to not give high level gear from our high level characrters to our lower level characters, then yes we could turn this off. In reality there will be a few who would get to 20th level, start a new character, and beef up their new character with their powerful gear. The rule is there to stop these few from doing this, and thus limits the rest of us.

Overall I see the benefits are far better than the consequences, since I dont care to use anything more powerful than what the level restrictions dictate. By level 7 you can use a +2 sword...that sounds pretty good to me. I have no reason for my level 3 to use anything like that. There would be no challenge, really.

Dralix · Post by **Dralix** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:30 pm

storminj wrote:I think item level restrictions do not necessarily make in game sense. Whay can one person wear a suit of magical armor while another not? or a sword? I guiess the more complicate items could be rationalized that that you need a more powerful person to approach and use such an item.

I have no problem with level restrictions from an IG or IC point of view. Just like with crafting where it takes a more skilled tradesman to make say platemail than padded armor, I think it makes perfect sense that it takes a more experienced warrior to wield a more powerful weapon.

Strangg · Post by **Strangg** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:48 am

From a RP standpoint level restrictions make no sense at all. However, since we do not limit the number of characters people can play to 1 and our server isn't permadeath i prefer them to be on for obvious reasons like twinking and the suchlike.

~S

Titanium Dragon · Post by **Titanium Dragon** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:16 am

I think some of you misinterpreted my post; it is not about changing Avlis, but more a general discussion on the pros and cons of it. Otherwise, I would have put it in the Avlis discussion one;)

It looks to me though that the majority of people believe that it is generally a positive thing as it prevents twinking and powergaming.

A valid point is that in a low magic world it really doesn't matter much anyway as it is so hard to get magic items in the first place, whereas in a high magic world it just gets rediculous. Props to whoever said that.

Bah, I'm too tired to make a coherent addition to this post. Oops.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:40 am

Yep. 'Tis a good idea.

I strongly disagree with it not making any RP sense. I think it makes perfect sense!

In my view it makes perfect sense ... well not the bit about not being able to "equip" the item (that's just to make the mechanics easier). But powerful magic requires skill to wield. For example, if someone off the street just found a +5 Hammer of Thor or some such, and tried to use it - it would probably end up getting thrown out of his hands and embedding itself in a nearby wall, or spewing lightning everywhere. There are many examples in fantasy fiction of such things .... er.. probably (can't think of any - but I'm sure there are). So, basically you need a certain amount of skill (and experience) to use the item properly. NWN engine makes this simpler to implement by just prohibiting its use entirely until you reach the right level.

Well, that's my view on the rationale behind it.

The fact thata it stops lvl 1 chars running around in uber gear ... handed down from relatives

... is just a bonus.

_LuCkY_ · Post by **_LuCkY_** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:56 am

It would actually be fun that ILR gets turned off and in return there is some sort of item mishap when you fail the checks to be able to use the item, much like scroll mishaps. A level 1 wizard trying to use a level 9 scroll would be fried if he fails his saving throw (though I don't think the mishaps are implemented on avlis

Would be fun to turn into a penguin when you failed that polymorph scroll

).

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:11 am

having a checkk.. nay... one wuld simpl try untill he was able to equip that Grandmaster Plate of Valor.... and then you'd have a lvl 1 char unkillable by lvl 1 monsters...

_LuCkY_ · Post by **_LuCkY_** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:32 pm

A check AND if you fail it a mishap. In case of that grandmaster plate of valok for instance a level 1 character would be sent to valok himself to aid him for all times or something like that

If you fail the check for a scroll you SHOULD (this is not in avlis though) get some serious damage (default is 1d6 damage per level of the scroll, but the DM can choose what sort of mishap occurs. For instance to chance into a penguin instead of a troll if you fail the polymorph scroll). That means if you as a level 1 wizard try a level 9 scroll and fail the check you'll get 9d6 damage which will surely kill the wizard. Man that would kill a lot of wizards with their low hitpoints... The type of mishap will of course be a lot harder to choose for items such as armour and weapons though...

Edit: read valor for valok there, but you get the point

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:40 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:Yep. 'Tis a good idea.

I strongly disagree with it not making any RP sense. I think it makes perfect sense!

In my view it makes perfect sense ... well not the bit about not being able to "equip" the item (that's just to make the mechanics easier). But powerful magic requires skill to wield. For example, if someone off the street just found a +5 Hammer of Thor or some such, and tried to use it - it would probably end up getting thrown out of his hands and embedding itself in a nearby wall, or spewing lightning everywhere. There are many examples in fantasy fiction of such things .... er.. probably (can't think of any - but I'm sure there are).

Let's just say I disagree with the above. IIRC, in the comic books Thor, a very normal person found the hammer and was transformed into the Mighty Thor (tm). I have read hundreds maybe a thousand of fantasy books and in many cases a very "low level" person finds the high magic item. Thor (hammer) Bilbo (The One Ring) Thomas Covenent (the white gold wielder). The list goes on and on. For most items, It DOES NOT make sense for ILR. ONLY in terms of perhaps relic/artifact levels of magic does it make some sense where you have to command the object to do your bidding.

Although, Gamewise it does make sense for the reasons already presented in this thread.

Best regards,

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:51 pm

j5hale3 wrote:
Dirk Cutlass wrote:Yep. 'Tis a good idea.

I strongly disagree with it not making any RP sense. I think it makes perfect sense!

In my view it makes perfect sense ... well not the bit about not being able to "equip" the item (that's just to make the mechanics easier). But powerful magic requires skill to wield. For example, if someone off the street just found a +5 Hammer of Thor or some such, and tried to use it - it would probably end up getting thrown out of his hands and embedding itself in a nearby wall, or spewing lightning everywhere. There are many examples in fantasy fiction of such things .... er.. probably (can't think of any - but I'm sure there are).
Let's just say I disagree with the above. IIRC, in the comic books Thor, a very normal person found the hammer and was transformed into the Mighty Thor (tm). I have read hundreds maybe a thousand of fantasy books and in many cases a very "low level" person finds the high magic item. Thor (hammer) Bilbo (The One Ring) Thomas Covenent (the white gold wielder). The list goes on and on. For most items, It DOES NOT make sense for ILR. ONLY in terms of perhaps relic/artifact levels of magic does it make some sense where you have to command the object to do your bidding.

Although, Gamewise it does make sense for the reasons already presented in this thread.

Best regards,

Well, each to his own. I have my way of rationalising it and you have yours.

PerkyElf · Post by **PerkyElf** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:17 pm

j5hale3 wrote:have read hundreds maybe a thousand of fantasy books and in many cases a very "low level" person finds the high magic item. Thor (hammer) Bilbo (The One Ring) Thomas Covenent (the white gold wielder). The list goes on and on.

I support removing the level requirements if I get the white gold ring.

Actually · Post by **Actually** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:42 pm

Ooh! Dibs on the Power of Command!

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - Kinslayer.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:17 am

In almost every book where joe low level pudnuts finds some sort of mega-powerful thing they do nothing with it...and hardly ever realy use it. Tomas Pudadent being the classic example of non-use, Sauron's ring another, come to think of it they never use it until the last big battle where they are no longer a low level pudnuts and are infact powerful.

The number of books where that did not happen was when the item was something specific to kill the big bad evil in the book anyway.

Having played without the restrictions I can only say keep the damned things in there. The preserve the game sanity. The only good thing is that Avlis is server vault...you want to see true insanity go to a server with local vault and no item level restrictions...what a joy that is.

Ares of PoG · Post by **Ares of PoG** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:47 am

Starslayer_D wrote:having a checkk.. nay... one wuld simpl try untill he was able to equip that Grandmaster Plate of Valor.... and then you'd have a lvl 1 char unkillable by lvl 1 monsters...

Not that it's any of my business anymore, but technically no character should have that particular item, *especially* if it was the +5 version and not the evil looking one. Or any of the Valor armors. Makes no IC sense, unless it was looted from a Valor member, which I doubt happened. I'd hope people who acquired them by mistake, meaning "Good" characters who talked to the bugged NPC that gave them before, would have had the RP sense to trash them. Selling or giving them away would be even worse.

Erm... that wasn't the point of the post at all, and I fully agree with you Star that one could simply try and try again if a roll was involved.

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:57 pm

Ares of PoG wrote:
Starslayer_D wrote:having a checkk.. nay... one wuld simpl try untill he was able to equip that Grandmaster Plate of Valor.... and then you'd have a lvl 1 char unkillable by lvl 1 monsters...

Not that it's any of my business anymore, but technically no character should have that particular item, *especially* if it was the +5 version and not the evil looking one. Or any of the Valor armors. Makes no IC sense, unless it was looted from a Valor member, which I doubt happened. I'd hope people who acquired them by mistake, meaning "Good" characters who talked to the bugged NPC that gave them before, would have had the RP sense to trash them. Selling or giving them away would be even worse.

Erm... that wasn't the point of the post at all, and I fully agree with you Star that one could simply try and try again if a roll was involved.

/ hijack on

OK, you live in a world full of evil monsters that want to kill you. Demons spew forth from inter-dimensional rifts and try to destroy the city you live in once every couple of months or so. Evil races of super powerful creatures are jockeying for position and the destruction of you and your entire race is a real and constant worry.

One day, you acquire a suit of armor from an "evil" source. It is by far the best armor you have ever seen. No doubt the previous owner used it to commit horrible attrocities. But regardless, this powerful armor will aid your survival in a violent world full of bloodthirsty, murderous creatures and evil demented necromancers. But its "Evil". So you throw it in the trash.

Please.

It is 100% in character for any character of any alignment to use any item that gives them an advantage. The only exception I can imagine is if it was an intelligent artifact that was evil, and the character was a Paladin, but even then, there are plenty of IC reasons to use an evil artifact to do good.

/hijack off

_LuCkY_ · Post by **_LuCkY_** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:05 pm

Actually I always thought alignment restrictions and in most cases class restrictions are silly. There are indeed plenty IC reasons to use AND not to use some suit of armour or whatever item which is utter good or utter evil etc etc. I think that decision should be made by the character and not by the game. In case of class restrictions, I can understand why a fighter might not be able to use a magic wand, but why wouldn't a fighter be able to wear a wizards robe?

Starslayer_D · Post by **Starslayer_D** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 3:30 pm

sly_1 wrote:
OK, you live in a world full of evil monsters that want to kill you. Demons spew forth from inter-dimensional rifts and try to destroy the city you live in once every couple of months or so. Evil races of super powerful creatures are jockeying for position and the destruction of you and your entire race is a real and constant worry.

One day, you acquire a suit of armor from an "evil" source. It is by far the best armor you have ever seen. No doubt the previous owner used it to commit horrible attrocities. But regardless, this powerful armor will aid your survival in a violent world full of bloodthirsty, murderous creatures and evil demented necromancers. But its "Evil". So you throw it in the trash.

Please.

It is 100% in character for any character of any alignment to use any item that gives them an advantage. The only exception I can imagine is if it was an intelligent artifact that was evil, and the character was a Paladin, but even then, there are plenty of IC reasons to use an evil artifact to do good.

/hijack off

Er... I really doupt a properly played paladin would even consider and evil item, method, drug or combat tactic. Would you really exspect a paladin tzo throw sand in your eyes in combat.. sure, it helps him survive.. but I doupt his god would not ghave a few choice things to say about this.

I talk about RP.. your justification is very powergaming. Unfortunately, NWN doesn't control a paladin as tight as a gamemaster in a PnP campaign can.. and thus, you see plenty of "evil" using "good" persons... but they don't suffer the consequences of their actions as hey do in literature.
Yes, bilbo used the one ring.. as he was 121 years old, he started to feel "thin", tired, fading... and he enver used it for evil..s till, the artefact started to gain dominancy on him.
You can wield stormbringer with the best of intentions...but Elric of Melnibone lost friend after friend to his sword.... and his world, his sanity, his life.

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:45 pm

Starslayer_D wrote:Er... I really doupt a properly played paladin would even consider and evil item, method, drug or combat tactic. Would you really exspect a paladin tzo throw sand in your eyes in combat.. sure, it helps him survive.. but I doupt his god would not ghave a few choice things to say about this.

I talk about RP.. your justification is very powergaming. Unfortunately, NWN doesn't control a paladin as tight as a gamemaster in a PnP campaign can.. and thus, you see plenty of "evil" using "good" persons... but they don't suffer the consequences of their actions as hey do in literature.

Ok, I admit the Paladin part of my argument is over the top, but the rest of my argument is still valid. I got the Paladin thing from an old pnp campaign years ago where the Paladin found this super powerful sword that was greedy and demanded gems be encrusted onto it's hilt and scabbard. He reasoned that it was ok to use it, because he was doing good with it. He also didn't realize the power of the thing and regretted the decision later, much like Bilbo and co. in your examples. But I digress.

As for "powergaming" vs. "rp" reasonings, I dunno, seems pretty rp to me that a character would want to survive in a world like avlis, or any other world for that matter.

Yes, Paladins and Clerics of certain gods would only use certain items, I'll grant you that. But if a chaotic good dwarf fighter found some +5 plate, he would use it regardless of where it came from. He'd be stupid not too.

Maybe the Paladin would destroy the evil item, but I don't think he would necessarily have to. In fact, someone may want to rp a Paladin falling from grace. He would start using the item, stop taking Paladin levels, and maybe perform some actions to shift his alignment away from LG. So long as he didn't run around pretending to still be a good and holy paladin while wearing the armor of an evil god, how is that not rp?

<edit sorry for the hijack, I promise not to post anymore

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