question about the long-term effects of army membership

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:21 pm

All covert ops and assasinations must be ordered. Use the army boards to propose an op and a DM (likely me) will approve of an op, change the op a little or order the op scrubed

Pharik · Post by **Pharik** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:36 pm

j5hale3

I agree with you I really do. Everything you stated in the last post has my 100% endorsement and reflects very much my sentiments in an ooc discussion in the private boards.

But character decisions shouldnt necessarily be irreversible especially if they inhibit the player's fun. Yes something as serious as this shouldnt be made easy by any means but it should still be made possible.

Don't forget some players are still learning the art of roleplay and while some may be of the opinion that Avlis is not a training ground I like to help and support players who find themselves struggling from time to time. As we all do.

(As for the Rackel incident..it was a DM event and the spawns were super-powered Bandits which is why the Tal' Rathes were called into help. Occasionally the usual spawn of zombies would rise from the grave but they were incidental to the major battle going on).

===============================================

Misty

Again, I agree I just didnt want this turning into a flaming thread where the topic is obscured by what amounts to ic mud-flinging. If Talon's player can take away something constructive here rather than feel it is a personal attack then we will all be the better for it.

Brick · Post by **Brick** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:39 pm

That's a relief. All my covert ops are done 'independenttly of the army' anyways so I tend to avoid PCs. It's just commoner killing and field burning for me, thanks.

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:07 am

whew, pharik, I glad I was able to make my points understood. And I agree 100% with your last message to me.

*offers an olive branch*

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:17 pm

You know this is very interesting.

Vanor and I have been discussing attacks by army personel on non-combatents. His comment to me is that this is that in RL this is murder. If you are not a serving member of the T'Nanshi military you are a non-combatent (my personal opinon is that no PC is a non-combatent meerly a question of netural, aligned or unaligned), and so you should not be being attacked by members of the miltary.

If ex members of the T'Nanshi military are not welcome in M'Check what is Tri'as Ju'ier doing in M'Check? Why would the government have accepted his ambassadorial papers?

It all depends on what the war is supposed to be like. If it is supposed to be like the 100 year war then there is no reason for ex-combatents to not be in the other country so long as they do not attract un due attention and in that case you might imagine people with a personal experience with that person would take steps. But that is not sanctioned actions.

Also why when I asked for a reply from the Government was I refered to a general? Generals do not set policy. Generals enact the policy of the government. As this is an a policy which restricts access it has to be aproved by the government...and it has a serious effects on M'Checks relations with other countries as you are talking about killing private citizens.

It is for me a completely alien concept what you are expousing here. Soldiers do their duty that is all. For the most part where there is a problem with that is when there were illegalities performed...prisoners killed and so on. That sort of thing is unforgivable in general...such as the actions of crop burning and killing commoners...but doing ones duty is not an offense to a soldier.

On the topic of Talon...you would imagine that a bit of time would be expected before it would be wise to return to allow tempers to cool but otherwise he is no longer a part of the war effort.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:37 pm

If ex members of the T'Nanshi military are not welcome in M'Check what is Tri'as Ju'ier doing in M'Check? Why would the government have accepted his ambassadorial papers?

You think I didn't already challenge him on that?

As Ent said earlier on this thread, it all comes down to money and bribing the right people.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:09 pm

Vanor and I have been discussing attacks by army personel on non-combatents. His comment to me is that this is that in RL this is murder. If you are not a serving member of the T'Nanshi military you are a non-combatent (my personal opinon is that no PC is a non-combatent meerly a question of netural, aligned or unaligned), and so you should not be being attacked by members of the miltary.

First, Avlis != RL, Avlis != Medieval times, etc etc, this has been well established. I will play along though.

The question is not should ex-military T'Nanshi soldiers be fought with and killed in M'Chek. The question is should ex-military T'Nanshi soldiers be in M'Chek in the first place. In the middle of say, World War II, were Japanese soldiers allowed to drop out of the army and migrate over to America? No, in fact the Japanese that were already here were put into camps so we could watch them.

So how do you keep them out of M'Chek then? Is there another way to discourage them from coming besides fear of bodily harm? There is no other way to force someone to do something in NWN.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:23 pm

What would the army's views on mercenries be? i.e. someone who joins up to fight on the side of M'Check one minute and then T'Nanshi the next?

Supposing this mercenry is currently fighting for M'Check... Now presumably you wouldn't trust them as far as you could spit, but also presumably you wouldn't attack them on sight just because they were once fighting for T'Nanshi? Not when they're currently on your side now.

A similar case is when people fight for one side - but when things get tough they switch sides and fight for their former enemies. They're allowed to fight for their former enemies because it helps - there's no point in killing them, when there are real enemies to fight. Of course, they might not be liked and when the wars over, both sides will probably hate them...

Now let's consider our old friend Talon Tal'Rathe...

Now, I'm not saying that Talon is/was a mercenry, but I believe that his reasons for joining the T'Nanshi army was his pursuit for balance, and at the time he thought that M'Check had too much advantge over the T'Nanshi forces. If you recall, Roland Barre had just upped the ante by putting bounties on all T'Nanshi soilders and anyone that helped them, and causing all non-human M'Check citizens to swear loyalty to M'Check, etc.

I think that this was his reasons for joining. He probably would have just as easily joined the other side if T'Nanshi Army leaders had done something similar.

Now, that works fine in theory, but a) you can't join / leave armies that easily the way it is scripted, and b) Talon's totally screwed the argument by getting on just about everyones tits and arguing with everyone!

But, I just though that I would mention that in his defense, as there have been several posters who have been saying things like "*whiny voice* well he joined up ... he should have had more conviction of his actions and not tried to get out when things got tough".

This view isn't quite accurate, I don't think he ever intended to be a permanent member of the T'Nanshi - he was just trying to make the war a bit more even. When it had balanced out, he would have most likely stopped.

But then what do I know - Talon is beyond belief sometimes

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:38 pm

This view isn't quite accurate, I don't think he ever intended to be a permanent member of the T'Nanshi - he was just trying to make the war a bit more even. When it had balanced out, he would have most likely stopped.

There's a major problem with the "just fighting for balance" excuse, and I'll tell you what it is.

The T'Nanshi's are in hotter water now than EVER. Their situation is MORE dire than when Talon decided to join and help them out in the first place.

So explain then why he is abandoning the fight for balance, except that the going got tough?

choraldances · Post by **choraldances** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:42 pm

Alright, stop using Talon as an example. Just play it as is. I have not seen anything done wrong with any side.

As far as Talon abandoning the fight, Funk, you don't know what's going on ICly to ask that question, and you shouldn't ask that question. That is IC.

As far as I'm concern, if you join the army, and you make those comments, you pay for your consequences ICly no matter what. But remember, this does go both ways.

Stop using Talon as an example.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:42 pm

And another thing about the idea of fighting to balance out a war in general... what can you possibly accomplish there? If everyone keeps balancing out the opposing forces, the war will never end. You just prolong the pain and suffering and killing.

choraldances · Post by **choraldances** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:46 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:And another thing about the idea of fighting to balance out a war in general... what can you possibly accomplish there? If everyone keeps balancing out the opposing forces, the war will never end. You just prolong the pain and suffering and killing.

This is already covered, ICLY!!!!!!!!!! You just DON"T KNOW ABOUT IT!

So stop with it.

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:47 pm

Dirk Cutlass wrote:Now let's consider our old friend Talon Tal'Rathe...

*points at Dirk* He started it Ma! He started it!

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:59 pm

FunkOdyssey wrote:
First, Avlis != RL, Avlis != Medieval times, etc etc, this has been well established. I will play along though.

FunkOdyssey,

I've seen this comment about Avlis not being equal to Medieval times. And I see you disagree as do I. I think the main problem with the "other" people is that they think Medieval refers just to our Medieval europe. It means so much more than that.

Here is a quote by Orl,

This thread is being started as a basic description of the world, Avlis, which will be hosted as a persistent world for Neverwinter Nights by the Black Dagger.

1) Description of the world itself, the people and all that good crap.

It's a large world with a basic medieval fantasy theme. The main real difference is that there's no human dominance like in all other worlds. Humans are just another race, and being good aligned is not the only approved way to be.

After a while I just don't get it, The core of D&D, AD&D, 3rd ED is exactly that Medieval (which includes things like technology available, and basic society values) Plus Fantasy (whick includes the elements of magic, monsters, Gods). Other games are based on Sci-Fi, Some on Specific historical periods.

I find it inappropriate to discuss things like "improper" farming techniques adn Birth Control in regards to the causes of famine of M'chek. I don't think I've seen that even mentioned in the world notes. I get the feeling that the land has become worn out or the climate has changed. And graphically the farms in Elysia look the same as those around M'chek. I don't see any evidence of any "better" agriculture.

I'm starting to ramble again... I'll stop here.

I guess my main point is that.. Yes this is a Medeival type Setting with it's own history and special features. And as the RL people that we are; we should be able to "project" ourselves into a world that is still in that stage of development before the industrial revolution with the added elements of magic, monsters, deities, superstitions, and ruins of earlier times.

Best regards,

sly_1 · Post by **sly_1** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:50 pm

Read most of the posts here and just wanted to add a realistic opinion...

In a war, grudges don't ever outweigh the possibility of gaining an advantage. If a leader of the opposing side offers to defect, he or she would be accepted with open arms regardless of past actions.

Why? Said leader would have valuable insight into the operations of their sides army, the officers, their plans, etc.

If anything, you guys have it backwards. The T'nanshi defector shouldn't have to bribe his way into M'check, M'check should be offering a REWARD for defection, and vice versa!

FunkOdyssey · Post by **FunkOdyssey** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:57 pm

We aren't discussing defectors or traitors that want to join M'Chek and help us defeat the elves.

We're talking about people who quit the T'Nanshi army because they want to hang out in M'Chek without being harassed.

j5hale3 · Post by **j5hale3** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:16 pm

Also we are talking about a possible murderer, possible traitor to M'chek first, and general trouble maker from a military point of view.

eNTrOpY · Post by **eNTrOpY** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:15 pm

Umm... didn't I already answer this question?

Until a long time member of the T'Nanshi army (now ex) pays a substantial bribe to the right government officals OR does something extremely heroic in M'Chek to earn the notice of some nobles, he or she will be KOS in M'Chek by the army. THe same applies the other way around.

A defector will be treated differently then someon who just quits the army.