What are the Laws?

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:33 pm

Of each city, in m'chek lands, in elf lands. I am sure there are different laws for each occasion. And how strict are the laws? What is more important, the spirit or the letter? I have not found any list of exactly what the laws are. Are the posted in some obvious place i just missed? Perhaps at the city gate so that travelers could know before entering the city? I hear that in mikona there are 3 teirs of privlages and everyone is protected by the law, but very little information on what those laws or privlages are. And the laws I have heard spoken about seem to be interpreted different by every single person that mentions them.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:38 pm

Orleron hates legal speak, it makes him physical ill...

So there's never been much officaly said about the laws of different places, and proably won't be much said.

When in doubt, go with the standard, no killing, no stealing.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:36 pm

my issue with that is this three teir of privlages. For one, which gods specificaly are the ones whos clerics and holy warriors are perfered? I have heard 3 different answers from 3 different sources. And what do the three teirs (if i even have that right) have the right to do?
- own property?
- command members of lower station?

If we go with the 'basics' Then there is NO law dictating any right of any group to kill anyone for any reason, but battery (just hurting folks) is perfectaly legal. Which does seem right, but some folks seem to think they have the right to kill folks that attack them, not just hurt them.

Simple works for me as long as there is some document somewhere. If even there was a short law at the city gates saying...
"no killing
no stealing
clerics of 1,2,3, and 4 and nobles are to be respected
the city guard and the order of g... will enforce the above laws, stay out if you cannot abide"
Maybe something about T'nashi (sp) not being welcome in the city.

The order of g.. (however you spell that word..) having no document to base their law enforcing on. This is a two edge sword in my opinion since it is their duty to know these 'laws' that donot even exist and therefore they must make them up. But that makes them seem like a dictateing tyrany to the common folks that may or may not agree with whatever law they decided to make up on the fly. This has just come up a lot lately IC and on the boards here and I would like some thing which to back any claims made about what is and is not acceptable.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:43 pm

"... Ef ye have trouble wit thet, then go somewhere thet does tolerate evil walkin 'roond tha city. ..."

Kharak Hammerstar
The Hammer of Gorethar
Battlemaster of the Order of Gorethar

This quote is the kind of stuff I would like to express my opinion about if only I had some knowledge to base that opinion on. In my research into the city of Mikona and the patron god Mikon, it seems to be that balance is desired and that the city does infact support the idea that evil is to be tolerated. But alas, without any access to any laws I cannot make any statement due to lack of proff to back any such claims i would put forth.

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:53 pm

Ahhhh, life in T'Nanshi is so much simpler... I just love Chaotic Good nations. Who needs laws anyhow? We'd only break them.

"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don' need no stinkin' badges!"

- Aloro

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:57 pm

no laws at all would suit me fine. it is not the lack of laws that bothers me, it is the enforcement upon me of laws that donot exist.

Lafferty · Post by **Lafferty** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:19 pm

... kill the bureaucrats

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:25 pm

The three tier thing is in Mikona only.

It's something like this.

non citizens have no rights, but are protected under the law. So you can't simply wack a non citizen for no reason. However a non citizen doesn't have the right to a fair trial either. Anyone can own propertity in Mikona. But doing so would most likely make you a citizen I think.

Citizens have some rights, and are protected under the law. They have the right to a trial and such.

Nobles are naturaly the upper tier.

As far as clerics go, the size of their temple is a fair way to judge how much power they have in the city. But that doesn't mean their orders are powerless. The city of Mikona has made some agreements with the Order of Gorethar, even though Gorethar doesn't have much presence in Mikona.

Where as in Elysia, clerics of O'Ma cary a ton of weight.

Also Elysia is netural good, and Le'Or is chatoc good, so the laws there are even more fuzzy but by design.

If you want a list of laws for each city, you'll not find much. Orleron hates legal speak and simply will not bother writing up such a thing.

Aloro · Post by **Aloro** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:56 am

As I understand it, Elysia is O'Ma's city, and His church holds the most influence there, while in Le'Or T'Nanshi the patron is Dru'El. Do the clergy of these religions have any civic duties and authority as a result of their Gods' patronages? That is to say, above and beyond being priests, do they act as e.g. arbiters of the "law" (ok, loose guidelines, fine)?

While the Order of Gorethar is well respected in Elysia, they aren't the "law" there, and would be far less so in Le'Or T'Nanshi, if I understand correctly. O'Ma is more prone to Lawful behaviour that Dru'El is, after all...

So, in the cities of Elysia and Le'Or T'Nanshi, which churches (if any) act to keep the peace and maintain the wellbeing of the communities?

- Aloro

Strangg · Post by **Strangg** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:17 am

WrathOG777 wrote: Which does seem right, but some folks seem to think they have the right to kill folks that attack them, not just hurt them.

They DO have the right to kill people who attack them. When dealing in a world where death is anythign BUT permanent it's about the only repercussion yuo have, especially sicne you can't subdue someone, tie them up and take them to jail and have NPC's take care of the trial. We WILL NOT HAVE TRIALS. Plain and simple, they are a waste of time and a bitch to get taken care of becuase everyone plays at different hours, we have peopl in the US, aus, germany and other euros that play here all the time, it's a bitch to get everyone together needed for trials.

~S

jadeia · Post by **jadeia** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:53 am

Strangg, it seems people never really get this.

We always come back to the court thing... People dont realise they can kill - as long as it is NOT PLAYER GRIEFING.

I wasnt around for the court thing, and thankfully as I heard it was a nightmare.

WrathOG777 · Post by **WrathOG777** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:23 pm

See the differing opinions we are already haveing about these laws that donot even exist? That is my issue. Right now anyone can kill anyone for any reason and claim it was the law because there is not a referance. And if that person if convinceing of course. If this is intended to be the case then so be it. That is great, I love the no trial thing. My problem here is not at all with the lack of law as I have mentioned. It is the folks that attack claiming it is their duty under the law. I shall take it on official word now that defenders have right under law to slay aggressors.

I will also assume that the 4 dietys supported by Mikona are Mikon, Valok, Maleki, and Dagath for they have large temples. Their clerics/holy warriors are treated as nobility. Thus they are not above the law but are above reproch, haveing privlage to do anything they feel is fullfiling their gods purpose. For example, in Maleki's case sacrifice is not 'killing' since the canidate has willingly entered the temple. (any diety spelling errors are completely unintentional)

lord_ion · Post by **lord_ion** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:46 am

Don't forget P'Tah, he has a good-sized temple as well.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 3:43 pm

Well this is a good place to post this I would guess.

The first thing is that enforcing non-existant laws is not that fun. If anyone thinks it is, think again. Dealing with this stuff is seriously hard. Especially so when the only punishment is death.

Even worse is the fact we have not been able to get most of the Order together to have a serious discussion on this. So basically I have had to take it on good faith that the other players have been doing this fairly. I IC investigate all complaints and so if you want to make one it will be taken seriously.

So from my pov what laws do we as the Order enforce:

1. Theft. We will ask you to throw out the stuff you stole and if you are not a guild thief expect a beating. But that is all dependant on the person. Kaelyn for example being lawful Good tends to be a fairly merciful sort.

2. NPC killing/PC killing. Expect to die. Need I say more?

Now it gets trickier...

Weapons in the city out and ready are something that makes no sense, so in general I ask people to sheath them. Normally speaking people do, those that don't well it depends on the situation. Generally I just warn them that the guards do not like it.

Summoned creatures. The trouble with this is that a mage will say "Oh it is under my total control." This will be followed five minutes later by "Oh, God! I did not want it to do that." That usally being slaying half a dozen commoners or whatever. So IC lets be frank, the creatures are all self willed (ooc: they have an AI) and no one in the city government would be keen on allowing elementals, dire spiders, or undead to wander around. On the undead, in Mikona everyone knows of the Lich and his undead hordes so what would be their first thought upon seeing a skeleton warrior wandering down the street behind someone? A servent of the Lich! Killing both of the skeleton and the summoner would soon follow. Defending yourself is another thing...since the NPC clerics will summon them it seems likely that is acceptable under the law.

Then you get questions such as if person or property has a higher standing in M'check? According to Vian it is property.

Or can I run into the temple of maleki in hot pursuit of someone commiting murder or not?

Is it legal to kill the high priest as he is committing treason? Or for that matter what to do with the evidence?

Then we get players complaining that things should be laws or the city should issue new laws or whatever. Well the "city" does not as I can ask all day about something to NPCs and get no reply so asking me IC to do that is simply frustrating to me. I would love a simple list of laws and penelties to enforce, it would make my life much easier.

Another thing that most people forget is the way legal stuff works in M'Check. You are assumed Guilty and must prove your innocence. This means once I accuse you, your are guilty until you can prove your innocence which is virtualy impossible.

Or let me be frank there is no way I can confirm things. So if you ever get involved in a Kelina-Slade things you are at a loss how to proceed as who is telling the truth is absolutely impossible to determine. Or say when Engwar shows me a sword and says he is an officer...well so what you killed an NPC and took his weapon. Or someone says they are in this or that army again no way to tell.

Finally I am going to PM Orl on an idea I have where Kaelyn will function to provide binding arbitration to settle disputes so that people do not have to go around killing one another just because there is no other option. But I need his approval for this to work and I need the time to think if I realy want to do this. But I have been dragged into settling disputes already at an almost regular rate so formalising it is not so bad an idea.

I hope that his view from the other side of this arguement helps people understand the pressures we are operating under.

Rabbit Man · Post by **Rabbit Man** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:37 pm

If someone on the team provides a little guidance, I can take the general themes they want to form the basis of the laws and turn them into specific laws that are fairly straight forward. Spell Singer, we can work together and come up with some laws that are simple for everyone. Then we can submit them to the team and they can review them on the team board. I think it can be more fun for everyone with a few simple laws. Good characters need laws to uphold, evil characters need laws to break. Chaotic characters need to know what to rebel against.

Spell Singer, Ulfang Engwar only lies when it is a whopper of a lie you can instantly recognize as such ooc. For example, Ulfang Engwar might say he has to be paid for the commoners/soldiers that he saw killed so he can tireless search for their families and give them the money. So in character it is plausible, but out of character you know he is lying because a PC can?t really do that. But if there is a dispute with another character or a situation that a PC can influence, I have my character tell the truth. In a dispute, Ulfang will selectively give facts that make it seem like he is an innocent victim, but he will not make up facts. And yes, Ulfang Engwar is an officer in the army. I think it leads to more twists and turns in the role play when everyone just shades the truth rather then outright lie. Out right lies break down into ?yes you did? ?no I didn?t? arguments and name calling, a very linear progression to the role play. Ignoring negative facts and focusing on those that help your character allows for everyone to investigate, debate, and react in character without a predictable outcome. If someone has a question about something with objective answers, like ?is the character really in the army? or ?what Order do they really belong to,? I always welcome an ooc tell to clear it up, so the characters can role play out the situation.

And by the way, the Order of Gorethar won?t beat down someone stealing that is in the Raven?s Guild? I am sure there are certain people in the Raven?s Guild that would be very interested in knowing which members are telling members of the Order of Gorethar they are in the Raven?s Guild. If I were them, I would be much more willing to accept a beat down from a Gorethar member then find out what the Raven?s Guild had in store for me by revealing my affiliation to a Gorethar member.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:45 pm

Rabbit Man wrote:If someone on the team provides a little guidance, I can take the general themes they want to form the basis of the laws and turn them into specific laws that are fairly straight forward.

Orl won't bother with it, that I can tell you without too much wory about Orleron conterdicting me.

Perhaps you could get him to appoint someone to look over them, and give him a simple "It's good" report when it's done, and he approves of them then and there.

Spell Singer · Post by **Spell Singer** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:17 pm

Rabbit Man wrote: And by the way, the Order of Gorethar won?t beat down someone stealing that is in the Raven?s Guild? I am sure there are certain people in the Raven?s Guild that would be very interested in knowing which members are telling members of the Order of Gorethar they are in the Raven?s Guild. If I were them, I would be much more willing to accept a beat down from a Gorethar member then find out what the Raven?s Guild had in store for me by revealing my affiliation to a Gorethar member.

My assumption here is that the guild has an arrangement with the Guard, and the Order is simply honoring that agreement. The raven guild do not grief the guard (make them call out the reservers just to corner one thief, do not leave bodies in the street, offer up a few people suffering disciplinary infractions for punishment so the guard can show the city that they are doing a good job, etc) and they do get let go easy. If such an arrangement does not exist, well, ignore the comment I made. I would appreciate knowing infact if this is the case or not.

The vast bulk of any punishment by the Order will be infact explaining why your character is doing what he or she is doing. We do not steal your things but we want to know why you feel this urge to kill people or whatever.

And the investigation of Engwar's sniviling complaint is ongoing slowed down by the fact I am having trouble talking to the principles in the case.

Umbrata Velvet · Post by **Umbrata Velvet** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:28 am

Whooohoo,

Orl posted a short set of laws for Elysia!

Way to go!

JollyOrc · Post by **JollyOrc** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:35 am

TWO of the SEVEN wrote:Whooohoo,

Orl posted a short set of laws for Elysia!

Way to go!

*goes down to hell, skiing*

Aradan Kir · Post by **Aradan Kir** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:21 pm

This whole question is one of the most difficult aspects I have found in being an initiate in the Order of Gorethar.

I am being asked to assist in upholding laws or beliefs that either :

a) I don't know if they exist or not (for example, the sheathing of weapons, the wandering summoned liches etc)

and

b) I don't necessarily agree with IC (for example, the fact that there is a temple to the evil God of murder in the middle of the city)

Now, a complete list of laws for Mikona would be ideal, but as that seems unlikely, we (the Order) will continue doing our best in keeping the peace in Mikona, and apologies to anyone who I annoy in the process of doing this.

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:17 pm

TWO of the SEVEN wrote:Orl posted a short set of laws for Elysia

Before anyone thinks Orleron has found a way to avoid becoming physical ill at the very mention of the word "legal code" Those laws were writen up by me, and submited to him for approval.

a) I don't know if they exist or not (for example, the sheathing of weapons, the wandering summoned liches etc)

If they don't exist, it's hard to say. There is no law however that I know of that states anything about summoned creatures, or sheathing weapons. My best advice is to only worry about things you know are clearly illegal, like murder and the like.

b) I don't necessarily agree with IC (for example, the fact that there is a temple to the evil God of murder in the middle of the city)

This is at least in part IMO... But a paladin or LG cleric really doesn't have the option of breaking a law he or she dissagrees with. They may try and work around it, or work to get it changed, but they won't simply ingore it or break it.

But in all cases, unless a law comes from a DM and is clearly posted as being such. It does not exist.

badstar2k3 · Post by **badstar2k3** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:10 pm

I like it the way it is. Its fun blaming and bashing OoG (with my OoG hatin char of course) about laws and regulations. But when it gets to a point where it annoyes you OOC maybe at least if not laws the guidlines can be put in place. Even OoG can put down guidelines without the permission of a DM i think. That way people know what is frowned upon. Something like this basically

Known Offences
Stealing
Murder

Things that may be frowned upon:
Unsheathed weapons
Summoned Creatures
Assault

You see where I am getting at though. Any feedback?

Vanor · Post by **Vanor** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:17 pm

badstar2k3 wrote:Even OoG can put down guidelines without the permission of a DM i think.

Guide lines? Maybe, but the OoG can't really speak for the goverement of M'Chek or Mikona, any more then any other PC can. Any sort of offical statement from the goverment has to come from a DM.

If someone from the order says "This is frowned on" they can speak for themself, or their order, but not the goverment.

Scurvy_Platypus · Post by **Scurvy_Platypus** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 6:18 pm

I'd like to suggest for a second that everyone that _really really_ wants laws stop and think for a monet....ok, now you've got laws. What now? Oh, well now you can enforce them so much better. Or, now you know exactly how far you can go before you're technically guilty of breaking a laws. Great. But wait...there was only one person that says they saw me breaking that law...shouldn't I get a lawyer or something? Shouldn't there be a way to prove I'm innocnet? What the hell kind of world makes up a bunch of laws and then won't even give you a chance to defend yourself? I can't belive that the Order can just walk in and say, "you're guilty"! That the hell gives them that right? And so on, and so on and so on.

Your heart may (or may not) be in the right place wanting a list of laws, but anything more than the sort of guidlines we have is IMO just begging for more problems. Because once the complaints about not having clearly defined laws are answered with a set of laws, then people will start complaining about their enforcement, or the fact that the laws are too broad.

Just RP it is my suggestion. And if you're a LG that can't figure out what is/should legal....well, you're stuck. Because you'll always be able to figure out a situation where an existing law doesn't cover it. Remeber LG doesn't mean Judge Dredd. It means that you are a Good person, that works within the bounds of what is socially sanctioned. Don't know if it is? Error on the side of the person being accused. Most good people don't automatically assume that everyone else is bad, and accusal of a crime should not be taken as conviction of that crime (except where the law says otherwise

)

See...you just go round and round on this topic. Stopping now...it's like being on a sit-n-spin for too long.

monty5012 · Post by **monty5012** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:12 pm

Silk wrote:The Execution of Cuxn Starfire will be held <Saturday 2/15/2003 @ 3PM EST> for the the Mass Murder of M'Chekian Soldiers. The execution will take place at the Town Square in the Government District. Feel free to bring your family and friends.

A reception will be held after the execution at the Rompin Romini Tavern.

Theres a law for you. Don't kill soldiers. Its a capital offense.

The World of Avlis

What are the Laws?

What are the Laws?

A city needs laws before they can be enforced.

exactly