Character concept question concerning PrCs

Nzifklm · Post by **Nzifklm** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:48 pm

Intro: While my character is stuck in his death plane AGAIN (annoying), I decided that I would make this post which I've been meaning too for a few days now. Keep in mind that I am fairly new to Avlis and don't know every rule off the top of my head. I have searched the forums to try and find the answer but haven't had any luck (not saying it isn't there though)

I'll start with the question: Is it possible to take levels in more than one holy warrior PrC?

OK, so here's my idea. Hypothetically, let's say there is a changeling who wants to serve a certain deity (most likely evil) the best that he can by becoming a double agent i.e. a holy warrior of another deity. He could then use one form around the holy warriors he is spying on and another form to report back to the holy warriors he is loyal to (admittedly you wouldn't HAVE to be a changeling to do this, but it seems like it would be much easier). I'm just not sure if it is possible IG to take more than one holy warrior class for whatever reason, mainly alignment issues. I'm not worried about the required feats because they can be taken care of relatively easily.

The other problems I can forsee are mostly OOC. I imagine that many holy warriors would be very agry if they discovered a PC attempting this. It would also be very hard for some in the order to ignore engine-specific identifying effects (floaty name, gamespy ID, etc.)

I would appreciate any feedback on my idea and answers to my question.

PS don't be too harsh this is my first real post.

--Nzifklm

Kareth · Post by **Kareth** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:52 pm

I can't see this being possible as I believe that if you wish to be a holy warrior you have to be a certain alignment. So I can't see how you could take levels in more then one Holy Warrior class.

Fuzz · Post by **Fuzz** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:55 pm

The concept works fine, but in terms of actual character creation, you couldn't actually have levels in both Holy Warrior PrCs. First off, the reqs dictate a certain number of levels just to access one PrC, let alone two. Secondly, each has a specific alignment you must be in order to take level sin it. Thirdly, it's hard, in general, to take levels in more than one PrC, holy warrior even moreso than regular ones...

Short of changing religion, I couldn't see ANYONE having levels in more than one Holy Warrior PrC.

This is not to say, however, that the idea has no merit. Keep in mind that you don't need to be a Holy Warrior to join a Holy Order... you don't even have to be a Cleric. So you could still RP out your entire idea just fine, without having the PrC levels... probably take Rogue, or even better, Bard, to RP the social aspects of faking your faith. (Points in Perform... it's used for more than just singing and playing instruments... here it would be acting)

Hope that helps. Good luck, since that's a really cool idea.

Sindol · Post by **Sindol** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:30 am

Yeah, it's already been pretty much said: You don't need to be a holy warrior to become a member of a holy order, but you need to be a member of a holy order and fill all the other requirements to become a holy warrior. I think you will find that achieving one holy warrior class is more than enough challenge fo any one character.

Also to clarify this:

let's say there is a changeling who wants to serve a certain deity (most likely evil)

The "most likely evil" here probably relates to your characer concept and not to the changeling preferences for alignment. Changelings are usually Chaotic Neutral, the alignment of their creator, the Greater God Forian.

Kroax · Post by **Kroax** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:00 am

Sindol wrote:
let's say there is a changeling who wants to serve a certain deity (most likely evil)
The "most likely evil" here probably relates to your characer concept and not to the changeling preferences for alignment. Changelings are usually Chaotic Neutral, the alignment of their creator, the Greater God Forian.

I think he was refering to the character concept. Still, good thing you cleared that up so there won't be any questions baout it later.

Dirk Cutlass · Post by **Dirk Cutlass** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:02 am

Of course, there is nothing wrong in your character "pretending" to be a cleric or holy warrior of another order. I was toying with this idea myself...

A changeling cleric of Forian, but has memorised alternate forms, which he basically uses to play clerics of other deities too - of course in this aspect he is ICly "faking it", for whatever reason - perhaps just for fun, perhaps because he wants to fit in (c.f. Woody Allen's cameleon man - I forget the film title), perhaps for more evil/secretive reasons ...?

He would use the changeling forms quite strictly, e.g. if he had a dwarf memorised that form would only be used to play his fake cleric of gorethar for instance.. In this way, they would essentially be alternative personalities. He would even have different sets of associates for each form, and really would try to live these different personalities quite separately.

For this to work best, an empty of vague "floaty name" would work best, to prevent people from mis-using it to identify you.

I may still do this... if I ever have time to start another PC

This concept may work for your holy warrior idea too - just pretend to be one, you don't actually have to be one. Get ready to face the IC consequences of impersonation though, it will probably get you into big trouble at some point.

Nzifklm · Post by **Nzifklm** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:06 am

Yes, i know, that changelings are generally chaotic neutral, but this is not absolute, is it?

But it's been awhile since i leveled. Are there alignment requirements for ALL of the holy warrior classes? It seems like some of them should be more open (confounders, for example, you don't HAVE to be CN to do what feels good)

I also realise that the PC wouldn't have to be a holy warrior of both dieties in order for this to work...but it'd just be cooler.

And i dislike the empty floaty name, it basically screams "I'M A CHANGELING" I have read the avlis policy on floaty names but i have also noticed that not every player follow it. The best thing i can come up with (without giving too much away) is just a generic sounding shakespearen/romance/fantasy name hoping that it will just blend in with all of the others...like "Sarah Stonewall" or maybe even more generic like just "Sarah".

ps is there a changeling guild yet?

--never trust a changeling

Nzifklm · Post by **Nzifklm** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:09 am

Double post

Sindol · Post by **Sindol** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:36 am

Nzifklm wrote:Yes, i know, that changelings are generally chaotic neutral, but this is not absolute, is it?

No, there's always the exception.

Nzifklm wrote: But it's been awhile since i leveled. Are there alignment requirements for ALL of the holy warrior classes? It seems like some of them should be more open (confounders, for example, you don't HAVE to be CN to do what feels good)

Yes, alignment restriction apply to all of them. The nine holy warrior prestige classes represent the epitome of fighting for what a god stands for. Next to a cleric or in some cases a druid, there's no class that has a closer connection to the deity than a holy warrior. Keeping to the deity's alignment is required for clerics and druids, so also for Holy Warriors.

Nzifklm wrote: ps is there a changeling guild yet?

Not really a guild no, but I know a few that meet up in game regularly. All of them are CN and follow Forian though. I'm not sure if the character you'd describe would fit in.
Any avlis guild is more about intentions than what you can do. There's no drangonari guild, nor a Wemic order, so I don't really see why there should be a changeling guild.

Nzifklm wrote: --never trust a changeling

Why not? They're heaps of fun.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:20 am

Here's a question in the same vein as the previous one:

Would it even be possible for a changeling to join a holy order in order to spy on it? I mean, wouldn't the god(dess) in question interfere on behalf of his/her worshippers? And what about the conversion script? Couldn't the Order use that in order to detect non-followers?

If not, then I'm expanding my plans considerably.

srn · Post by **srn** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:00 am

Hell, I know that people use the "buy robes of the religion" conversation to filter out heretics from certain organisations

And why not; it's reasonable that a high level cleric/druid in his/her Gods/Godesses temple/grove/whatever should be able to know if someone's one of the faithful or not.

Nzifklm · Post by **Nzifklm** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:00 am

I suppose my real idea was to just confuse the mortal worshipers of the diety to be spied on. Therefore being a holy warrior would be a bit much, but if one were to become a low-level member of a holy order and attend meetings and such...

srn · Post by **srn** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:03 am

Nzifklm wrote:I suppose my real idea was to just confuse the mortal worshipers of the diety to be spied on. Therefore being a holy warrior would be a bit much, but if one were to become a low-level member of a holy order and attend meetings and such...

I guess so... But I'd expect you'd be found out pretty quickly - they just have to ask you to talk to the right NPC and you're discovered...

Nzifklm · Post by **Nzifklm** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:59 am

they just have to ask you to talk to the right NPC and you're discovered...

isn't this hugely OOC and all around bad RP?

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:02 am

Nzifklm wrote:
they just have to ask you to talk to the right NPC and you're discovered...
isn't this hugely OOC and all around bad RP?

Heh, good question. While I would like to say "yeah, it's horrible RP" (mainly because it would work very much to my advantage), I don't think it is. The idea of a Holy Order is that they are very selective, and I would think that a priest in charge of a temple of their god, inside that temple can probably discern true worshippers of that god.

I am not a Team Member, so my word is anything but law, that's just the impression I would give. In addition, it makes it pretty much impossible to spy on them.

I don't know, though. Should it be impossible? Definitely a good question for the Team.

srn · Post by **srn** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:07 am

Nzifklm wrote:
they just have to ask you to talk to the right NPC and you're discovered...
isn't this hugely OOC and all around bad RP?

As well as what Keflex wrote, in RL or PnP you could ask their friends, relatives etc about them - do a real background check.

In PnP you'd cast Know Alignment and that would do most of the work for you.

For argument's sake, if there was a Know Alignment spell, would that be bad RP?

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:10 am

srn wrote:
Nzifklm wrote:
they just have to ask you to talk to the right NPC and you're discovered...
isn't this hugely OOC and all around bad RP?
As well as what Keflex wrote, in RL or PnP you could ask their friends, relatives etc about them - do a real background check.

In PnP you'd cast Know Alignment and that would do most of the work for you.

For argument's sake, if there was a Know Alignment spell, would that be bad RP?

On the other hand...

In PnP you've got people from all over the world, whose backgrounds you may not be able to check out. You've got spells that hide your alignment, or show a different one. You've got the polymorph spells, that change you into something else (though I think True Seeing could see through those in 3.0), etc. There's always a chance of a properly prepared, determined person to get in in order to spy. There isn't really that chance in Avlis. *shrugs* I can see both sides of the argument.

Though, if your alignment is right, the deity would accept you, regardless of whether you were a spy or not. I would think this is somewhat cheesing, though, since it would change your deity field, and you don't actually worship the deity in question.

Also, given that it's been said repeatedly that your actions determine your alignment, and not your morales, ethics, or beliefs, you've got to wonder if changing your alignment in order to spy on a different order would be cheesing/metagaming. I'd have to say it probably is, but again, I'm not a Team member.

Eliyas · Post by **Eliyas** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:17 am

Keflex wrote:Heh, good question. While I would like to say "yeah, it's horrible RP" (mainly because it would work very much to my advantage), I don't think it is. The idea of a Holy Order is that they are very selective, and I would think that a priest in charge of a temple of their god, inside that temple can probably discern true worshippers of that god.

I am not a Team Member, so my word is anything but law, that's just the impression I would give. In addition, it makes it pretty much impossible to spy on them.

I don't know, though. Should it be impossible? Definitely a good question for the Team.

I don't really agree with this. I doubt temples would cast Detect Alignment spells on any of the new members, and though the gods would probably want to root out any spies from their congregations, I doubt they would be so omnipotent as to watch every new member (remembering, of course, the huge number of NPCs we can't see because of game engine limitations). Note, though, that this only goes for the rank-and-file members of a temple. I can see no way at all that someone could become a holy warrior without truly believing in that god, or really advance to any position of power in the temple.

Just think about it this way: I could walk into any church, temple, or mosque and be accepted as a regular member once I paid my initial dues. If I wanted to become a leader in the religious comunity, however, I would have to prove myself, and on Avlis this would most likely be through some sort of divine intervention or inspiration.

Again, though, I'm not a member of the team, so don't take this as gospel.

EDIT: Wow, someone mentioned the Know Alignment thing before I could submit... I've really got to get quicker at these things

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:28 am

Eliyas wrote:I don't really agree with this. I doubt temples would cast Detect Alignment spells on any of the new members, and though the gods would probably want to root out any spies from their congregations, I doubt they would be so omnipotent as to watch every new member (remembering, of course, the huge number of NPCs we can't see because of game engine limitations). Note, though, that this only goes for the rank-and-file members of a temple. I can see no way at all that someone could become a holy warrior without truly believing in that god, or really advance to any position of power in the temple.

I'm not saying for every worshipper, just for the members of the Holy Orders, which is a relatively small group.

Eliyas · Post by **Eliyas** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:39 am

Keflex wrote:I'm not saying for every worshipper, just for the members of the Holy Orders, which is a relatively small group.

Then I completely agree. When you become a member of a holy order or even the most basic cleric, you are recieving a blessing from your god, something you wouldn't get if you weren't a true worshiper. At that point, Know Alignment shouldn't even be an issue. But if someone were to use the 'buy holy robes' script to ferret out regular members, I would consider that completely OOC, unless it was a very high ranking cleric doing the asking themselves, in which case the god in question would probably tell them.

Hell, I could see even pretending to be a lowly cleric of an order using Forian's blessings, though I doubt that the god would stand for that for long... that would be some interesting roleplaying.

Keflex · Post by **Keflex** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:58 am

Is there a possibility a Team member could weigh in on this? Or are y'all already discussing it?

Psyco · Post by **Psyco** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:06 am

As a player, not a team member, I would say that if someone wants to infiltrate a holy order as a spy, good on them. It has been done in the past, and will be done again in the future.

I never use the buy robes feature for people i am dealing with, i always just supply them with a set, if through RP they can convince someone they are something other than what they are, then good on them.

However being a holy warrior is a very different thing, and IMO it would be pretty bad form to become a holy warrior for a god you did not believe in. But it is not a requirement of any of the holy orders (that i know of) that you must be a holy warrior, so not taking it to that level would not really restrict your RP in any way.