Newbie Question II: The Newbie Strikes Back

[Abdul_Caffeine]

Um...

*coughs*

Um, hi, I'm Abdul. I'm an experienced roleplayer, a (relative) AD&D newbie, and NWN virgin (that is, apart from playing through the main game). I'd like to play in Avlis, if you'll have me, and I have some questions.

Lemme just explain a bit first.

I have a character concept: shepherd kid receives a vision from Forian, telling him: go, do whatever seems wise at the time, and never look back. He's a smart kid - was unsatisfied with being a shepherd - and has embraced his new life completely.

So. Chaotic Neutral, probably a Cleric or a Rogue. (Have to think about it; Paladin was my obvious thought but they have alignment restrictions.)

I'd really like to properly roleplay a follower of Forian as he travels the "never think before acting" path of enlightenment. I believe I can do justice to the character, and I think it'd be a lot of fun.

Questions:

1) A lot of the actions which a Forian fundamentalist would undertake would come very, very close to being considered griefing. Picture the following scene:

character1: Hi, my name's Tim.
character2: *kills character1*
character3: What was that for?
character2: Felt like it.

Where do I draw the line between following Forian IC and respecting other players OOC?

2) There doesn't seem to be a great deal written up about Forian; either that, or I've missed it. If I've missed it, can someone point me to it; if it just hasn't been written, well... does anyone mind if I have a go?

3) This shows my D&D inexperience, but... if I end up making a cleric, then does my choice of Forian dictate which Domains I choose? Or do I get to simply pick two which I think come closest to this character's vision of the deity? (Gods are complex, multifaceted things, after all).

[Sindol]

Um...

*coughs*

Um, hi, I'm Abdul. I'm an experienced roleplayer, a (relative) AD&D newbie, and NWN virgin (that is, apart from playing through the main game). I'd like to play in Avlis, if you'll have me, and I have some questions.

Lemme just explain a bit first.

I have a character concept: shepherd kid receives a vision from Forian, telling him: go, do whatever seems wise at the time, and never look back. He's a smart kid - was unsatisfied with being a shepherd - and has embraced his new life completely.

So. Chaotic Neutral, probably a Cleric or a Rogue. (Have to think about it; Paladin was my obvious thought but they have alignment restrictions.)

I'd really like to properly roleplay a follower of Forian as he travels the "never think before acting" path of enlightenment. I believe I can do justice to the character, and I think it'd be a lot of fun.

Welcome to Avlis. It really sounds like you understood Forian quite well indeed. Paladin's belong to Gorethar though and not just of the alignment. Look on the world information boards for info on holy warriors and you will find that Forian's holy warriors are called confounders. A custom Avlis prestige class was implemented for this. Might be something for you.

Questions:

1) A lot of the actions which a Forian fundamentalist would undertake would come very, very close to being considered griefing. Picture the following scene:

character1: Hi, my name's Tim.
character2: *kills character1*
character3: What was that for?
character2: Felt like it.

Where do I draw the line between following Forian IC and respecting other players OOC?

Ok, that example is of course griefing. Griefing is all about finding that border between IC RPing your character as good as you can, but still keeping it fun for all involved. Just being killed for no other reason than "because I'm evil" or "just because I feel like it" may be perfectly IC, but they are not considered valid reasons, because they affect the player climate in a very negative way. Main rule: use your common sense and you'll be fine.

2) There doesn't seem to be a great deal written up about Forian; either that, or I've missed it. If I've missed it, can someone point me to it; if it just hasn't been written, well... does anyone mind if I have a go?

There's some on the world info boards and there's some on the Cleric's private discussion boards as well. There is or will be an entry on the website as well, which compiles the info from those sources for easy use.

3) This shows my D&D inexperience, but... if I end up making a cleric, then does my choice of Forian dictate which Domains I choose? Or do I get to simply pick two which I think come closest to this character's vision of the deity? (Gods are complex, multifaceted things, after all).

No, at this time Avlis has no "clerics from this god have these domains" list. Use your own judgement. I can see from your questions that you've put some time into researching Forian and your character concept, so I have no doubt you will come up with something appropriate.

Good luck and see you online soon.

[Abdul_Caffeine]

Welcome to Avlis. It really sounds like you understood Forian quite well indeed. Paladin's belong to Gorethar though and not just of the alignment. Look on the world information boards for info on holy warriors and you will find that Forian's holy warriors are called confounders. A custom Avlis prestige class was implemented for this. Might be something for you.

I looked at it, yeah, and I don't like it. The confounder looks to me as though they deliberately try to sow confusion and discord everywhere, like a bad cross between Robert Anton Wilson and Beowulf. I see my character as being a more calm, serendipitious sort, like the wandering Zen monk from fiction. After all, going out and sowing chaos requires planning and intention, both of which strike me as being something a fundamentalist Forianite would shy from.

Otherwise, yeah, thanks a lot. I hope to be online soon.

[Abdul_Caffeine]

Sorry, have just reread and discovered that my initial reading of Confounders was entirely wrong. They are in fact lazy, mercenary layabouts. I may well play one, although the mercenary side of it doesn't really fit. (A fanatic doesn't demand money. He does what he does because God commands it, not because someone's paying for it.) Have to think about it...

In the spirit of Forian, I am not editing the above post. The mistake was granted to me by the Mad God, and thus it's gotta be there for a reason. It only looks like chaos to a non-initiate.

[Vicky]

In the spirit of Forian, I am not editing the above post. The mistake was granted to me by the Mad God, and thus it's gotta be there for a reason. It only looks like chaos to a non-initiate.

I like your style.

Welcome to Avlis, may your stay be long and chaotic.

V x x x

[Sindol]

Yeah, a confounder is a holy warrior, his powers come directly from Forian. He is the direct embodiment of Forian's way of life: live it to the max, do what you feel like at that time. The fact that he causes chaos is just a logical effect of that, not as much a goal. Goals are for other people, they would require looking to the future and *ugh* planning your life. How distasteful.

[Halvar Yanocen]

3) This shows my D&D inexperience, but... if I end up making a cleric, then does my choice of Forian dictate which Domains I choose? Or do I get to simply pick two which I think come closest to this character's vision of the deity? (Gods are complex, multifaceted things, after all).

There aren't any rules for which domains you should choose but this thread contains some thoughts on it.

Hope to see your character in game soon.

[Abdul_Caffeine]

Looking at Confounders, and playing around with various character builds.

NWN doesn't want me to start off play as a Confounder. Does the Avlis server allow one to start the game as a prestige class, or should I start as something else and then multiclass to the Confounder? If so, what?

Heeeeeeeeelp.

*tries not to be a whiny newbie* *fails*

[Nob]

Avlis Holy warriors besides Paladins need to be taken as PrC levels therefore you can't start in them.

I guess it's simply because the Paladins are the only ones who kidnap young children who show an affinity for Gorethar to train instead of waiting for them come around to the faith themselves.

[WrathOG777]

You have to start out as something else and multiclass into a holywarrior. So pick something, like the cleric or rogue you suggested already, then when you are ready, do the quest (which does not exist yet) and become a holywarrior.

[WrathOG777]

lot of good information in the R&R forum! should always look there for the real uncensored opinions. Here is some real advice on domains.

viewtopic.php?t=21730&highlight=domain

[Sindol]

Looking at Confounders, and playing around with various character builds.

NWN doesn't want me to start off play as a Confounder. Does the Avlis server allow one to start the game as a prestige class, or should I start as something else and then multiclass to the Confounder? If so, what?

Heeeeeeeeelp.

*tries not to be a whiny newbie* *fails*

A prestige class means you have to earn it, which means in turn that you'll have to fulfill certain requirements first. Which requirements depends on the particular prestige class you're trying for. Look here for a complete list.

You'll have to meet the requirements by levelling in another class, which class is your own choice, but likely some planning would be involved.

[Actually]

Keen.

You, plus me and Halvar and what's-his-name that Redloved played, and one other who I won't name at this time... That makes four freaky fanatics for Forian's fabulous felicity. Zounds.

Confounders are not, as yet, scripted into Avlis. I've been given tentative approval from Orl to set up Forian's Fold which would include rules for Confounders. (Read: If I do all the work, and it doesn't suck, then it'll likely get used. ) I'd love to trade ideas with you via PM, or here if you'd prefer...

Ever read The Invisibles by Grant Morrison? Most of what I envision for the Fold comes from those comix.

It will be a non-organization.

You are a member of the Fold because you SAY you are a member of the Fold.

Any member of the Fold, upon encountering another self-professed member, will gleefully aid them in whatever task they are undertaking. Unless it sounds dumb, or boring, in which case screw it.

The closest thing to an overreaching goal I see the Fold, or the Confounders, having is a desire to avoid repetitiousness and dolour in life, whether that be obtained by planning a daring raid into the Goretharian's stronghold to steal their sacred underpants, or selling drugs, or wandering around Verossa's temple seeing how many traps you can set off without dying, or just being so indescribably freaky that everyone who interacts with you is mentally unbalanced as a result.



As for what makes a Confounder... For now, my tentative ideas run towards a few things. After some IC talks w/ Timo, I'm leaning towards a quest that would involve a PC visiting ALL of the death planes, one after another, for the purposes of experiencing the entirety of extra-corporeal reality. IMO, such an overdose of heaven and hell would divest someone of the ability to value good or evil actions. What difference does right or wrong make, when you've already seen all that death has to offer? Stuff like that.

But, first and foremost as I've told everyone who's come asking me about Forian, just DO WHAT YA LIKE. Play your Forianite the way that makes sense to you, and rest assured that if you run into Jerry he'll be totally down with whoever you are and whatever your doing. Forianites should be easy going, fun loving, supportive of each other, and generally great people to have around, yeah? Unless your dumb or boring, in which case screw it.

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - Barbelith

[Redloved]

Keen.

You, plus me and Halvar and what's-his-name that Redloved played, and one other who I won't name at this time... That makes four freaky fanatics for Forian's fabulous felicity. Zounds.

Yeah, I play Gallix Harroway, the Halfling Cleric of Forian from Ferrell(And purveyor of fine and rare imports), and I'm loving it.

But I think that I should add in, that Gallix if he ever chooses to become a Confounder, he would have a hard time wielding a heavy flail, because he can't wield one. One of the requirements for the becoming a Confounder I believe is a weapon focus on the Heavy Flail, which I think is possible, even though he cannot wield it. But hey, I don't think it would matter if he could wield it or not, as long as he became a confounder.

But, yeah, it is definitely nice to another Cleric of Forian about, I hope to see you in the game.

[Abdul_Caffeine]

Forian =/= Eris

Forianism =/= Discordianism or Chaos Magic

Forianism seems much closer to the stuff in The Book of Lies, IMHO.

[Abdul_Caffeine]

Elaborating on my earlier post:

I'd love to do that. The Fold sounds like the kind of insane, Grant Morrison-inspired project that I'd be willing to maim to be a part of.

On a different note, I'm moving my primary character, Aleksandros, out to Ferrell. Perhaps I'll see you there?

[Actually]

You'll probably run into Gallix out Ferrell way.

Jerry is part-owner, and Entertainment Coordinator, of the Second Solace Tavern and Hostelry in Elysia. Mostly he hangs out there these days, when he's not off being a rambling man. You're most likely to encounter his peculiar take on the insubstantiality of time and consequence by hanging out there.

Father Yanocen bombs around all the servers like a good free-range Forianite priest should. I know he was planning to buy a membership to the Canvas in Mikona. But I've run into him a time or two at the Solace. More and more of the potential Fold has figured out that the Solace is the most entertaining place to hang out on any kind of regular basis.

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - A...A...A...

[JollyOrc]

Oh, we've welcomed Father Yanocen in The Canvas a few times already.

For someone who isn't there often, he's amazingly regular. Guess that shows just how good a Forianite he is.

[Tahni]

If you want to find Father Halvar, then look for the biggest amount of trouble, chaos and overall mayhem. And some where there will be Father Halvar, slap bang in the middle of it. Trust me, I'm a friend, I know

Failing that about any tavern on Avlis

Tahni

[Aloro]

As of this morning, Confounder is on my to-do list. So get yer holy order together, or apart, as the case may be, and unto thee I will give quests and such, that thou mays?t confound rich and poor, old and young alike with thy ways.

What influences will I bring to bear on this project? Well, first and foremost the Principia Discordia (Hail Eris!). The aforementioned Invisibles by G.M. is a helluva read as well, loaded down with Gnostic mysticism and counterculture trivia, so I wouldn?t be surprised to see some influence therefrom, or for that matter other Gnostic goodies like the Pistis Sophia. Uncle Aleister wasn?t all that random a guy, though the Book of Lies is a fun read ? still, he and the Illuminati author who shares my initials (and whom I?ve met thrice now ? Bob?s a funny gent) will doubtless be in the back of my mind. Surreal comedy, from Monty Python to the Far Side, is not to be discounted as well. Add two parts Theodore Geisel, four helpings of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, and one portion Dada, and you?re probably as close as you?re likely to get to where I?ll start this from. Got all that? OK, good, now scrap it. This is bleedin? Forian we?re talking about, and if it?s predictable, something?s wrong.

There are two ?quest? requirements for holy warrior PrCs. The first is an informal one, and simply involves the approval of the holy order of the god in question. E.g. to be a Dominator, you?ll need the approval of the Order of Valok. This one is entirely in PC hands, and won?t be scripted ? it isn?t necessarily a quest either. It could be nothing more than a vote, if you like. The second, formal quest is what happens after you get approval from the holy order, and this quest (which is my job) is scripted and prefabricated. I don?t think a quest to visit all the death planes is remotely viable, sorry. For one thing, death planes have a very strict admittance and release program ? many will not allow you to enter unless you have specific ethos already, and others will not let you leave unless you meet their idiosyncratic requirements. Moreover, this would require the reworking of a substantial number of areas, none of which I am personally keen to revisit. So? other ideas for your pre-quest quest? I was thinking of something more akin to requiring the person to spend 2 hours fishing in Ferrell, wearing something ridiculous like one of those Dominatrix outfits, and then going to, say, Mikona (still dressed the same, naturally) to sell whatever you caught FOR NO LESS THAN 1000 GOLD. If you caught nothing, then you?d fucking well find a way to go sell nothing for 1000 gold. If it?s a fish or a sandal, well then, there you are. Anyhow, were that part in my hands (which we can all be thankful it is not), I might suggest something like that. Your fish? errr? your requirements are your own though.

- Aloro

[Actually]

As of this morning, Confounder is on my to-do list. So get yer holy order together, or apart, as the case may be, and unto thee I will give quests and such, that thou mays?t confound rich and poor, old and young alike with thy ways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we need 8 players before we're eligible for the status of "player guild" which is what we'd need to be a Holy Order, complete w/ in-game gear and a private forum of our own, yeah? By my count we've got... Five. Can we count Halvar twice? How 'bout we count Timo, and not tell him about it, yeah?

What influences will I bring to bear on this project? Well, first and foremost the Principia Discordia (Hail Eris!). The aforementioned Invisibles by G.M. is a helluva read as well, loaded down with Gnostic mysticism and counterculture trivia, so I wouldn?t be surprised to see some influence therefrom, or for that matter other Gnostic goodies like the Pistis Sophia. Uncle Aleister wasn?t all that random a guy, though the Book of Lies is a fun read ? still, he and the Illuminati author who shares my initials (and whom I?ve met thrice now ? Bob?s a funny gent) will doubtless be in the back of my mind. Surreal comedy, from Monty Python to the Far Side, is not to be discounted as well. Add two parts Theodore Geisel, four helpings of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, and one portion Dada, and you?re probably as close as you?re likely to get to where I?ll start this from. Got all that? OK, good, now scrap it. This is bleedin? Forian we?re talking about, and if it?s predictable, something?s wrong.

Have you seen Wilson since his wife died? I hear he took it pretty hard. Nobody's sure if he'll write again.

Crowley was a great old school nut, and I'll always remember him fondly for his influence on Heinlein. (And that whole Azathoth thing... *tee-hee*) His exposition on Choronozon would be valuable, to a point, as it's probably the closest he came to conceptualizing a "meta-sane" individual. (Ooh, speaking of which... Who's read "Batman: Arkham Asylum"? More good examples of Confounderism.)

There are two ?quest? requirements for holy warrior PrCs. The first is an informal one, and simply involves the approval of the holy order of the god in question. E.g. to be a Dominator, you?ll need the approval of the Order of Valok. This one is entirely in PC hands, and won?t be scripted ? it isn?t necessarily a quest either. It could be nothing more than a vote, if you like.

Done. Everyone's approved as a Confounder. Congratulations, see the duty seargent in the next tent to see about getting fitted for a Heavy Flail.

The second, formal quest is what happens after you get approval from the holy order, and this quest (which is my job) is scripted and prefabricated. I don?t think a quest to visit all the death planes is remotely viable, sorry. For one thing, death planes have a very strict admittance and release program ? many will not allow you to enter unless you have specific ethos already, and others will not let you leave unless you meet their idiosyncratic requirements.

The "questgiver" could have a scripted "alignment shift then DMkill" function that would ensure the Confounder-to-be got sent, one by one, to all the planes. This "questgiver" would store, as a local variable, the exact alignment level of the PC BEFORE he began the quest cycle. A single line could be added to the OnClientEnter event for the mod, that would look for that variable on a given PC upon login, and if a value is found then the PC's alignment is instantly set to that value and the variable is cleared. This would prevent exploitation, as you would NOT be able to keep whatever alignment you wanted by stopping the quest cycle artificially.

A Confounder-to-be would be expected to abide by the rules and regulations of the death plane they are in. You want out? You do what it takes to get out. That is part of the lesson being taught.

You would need the "questgiver" to store another local variable on the PC, that would act as a counter, of sorts, for the purposes of making sure the PC cycled through ALL the planes. That would take me a few days to write, I think. Lotsa logic hoops to jump through.

Moreover, this would require the reworking of a substantial number of areas, none of which I am personally keen to revisit.

Not if we do it my way. Barring something major that I don't know about how one of the planes I've never seen functions, my idea shouldn't require touching a single line of code for any of the death planes. All scripting is handled by the "questgiver", with all neccessary data storage being kept local on the PC.

So? other ideas for your pre-quest quest? I was thinking of something more akin to requiring the person to spend 2 hours fishing in Ferrell, wearing something ridiculous like one of those Dominatrix outfits, and then going to, say, Mikona (still dressed the same, naturally) to sell whatever you caught FOR NO LESS THAN 1000 GOLD. If you caught nothing, then you?d fucking well find a way to go sell nothing for 1000 gold. If it?s a fish or a sandal, well then, there you are. Anyhow, were that part in my hands (which we can all be thankful it is not), I might suggest something like that. Your fish? errr? your requirements are your own though.

- Aloro

Can I get back to you? I'd love to think of some stuff more seriously (it's just been a "someday" project for me up to now), and get some ideas from the other Freaky Forianites out there. I'm pretty certain that no one is in close proximity to the requirements for playing a Confounder right now anyways, and I'd be happy for the Confounder quest to get pushed back until everyone's really happy with it. I'm sure there are lots of other Holy Warriors In Training out there who'd love for their class to come first. *laughs*

Also, what are your feelings on using the SetDeity() event in conjunction with the Confounder quest?

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - DISCLAIMER: Actually's scripting knowledge is the equivalent of a thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters. Your onscreen results may differ drastically.

[Aloro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we need 8 players before we're eligible for the status of "player guild" which is what we'd need to be a Holy Order, complete w/ in-game gear and a private forum of our own, yeah? By my count we've got... Five. Can we count Halvar twice? How 'bout we count Timo, and not tell him about it, yeah?

You're right, that's the standard requirement for guild founding. 8 is a nice, round number. That's how many fingers you have on both hands, not counting thumbs! I'm convinced that's how the number was arrived at... or maybe the subject matter is influencing my perception. Hmmm... or was it simply 2 to the 3rd power? Well, anyhow, 8 is the number.

Have you seen Wilson since his wife died? I hear he took it pretty hard. Nobody's sure if he'll write again.

Crowley was a great old school nut, and I'll always remember him fondly for his influence on Heinlein. (And that whole Azathoth thing... *tee-hee*) His exposition on Choronozon would be valuable, to a point, as it's probably the closest he came to conceptualizing a "meta-sane" individual. (Ooh, speaking of which... Who's read "Batman: Arkham Asylum"? More good examples of Confounderism.)

I saw Bob last... errr... February. I surely do hope he keeps writing more of the historical Illuminatus series - they're linear and "novelish" compared to his other stuff, but I really want to see where he planned to take the story.

Speaking of Choronzon, have you read "The Tortuous Serpent" by Donald Tyson? It's John Dee vs. the Sons of Choronzon as you've never seen it before... and Donald knows the subject material pretty well. Granted, he writes for Llewellyn, but hey, nobody's perfect.

And yeah, Arkham Asylum was a good read, though the art wasn't to my taste. It was a kick to see Bats using magic though...

Done. Everyone's approved as a Confounder. Congratulations, see the duty seargent in the next tent to see about getting fitted for a Heavy Flail.

Yeah, exactly. Or wait, even better. Count the number of letters in the applicant's name. If it's odd, they're approved. If it's even, they have to get a new name and reapply.

Really, it's not essential that this part be in any way formal. Many guilds will just vote, or will approve everyone that comes through, which is perfectly acceptable. However you guys want to handle it is fine, really.

The "questgiver" could have a scripted "alignment shift then DMkill" function that would ensure the Confounder-to-be got sent, one by one, to all the planes. This "questgiver" would store, as a local variable, the exact alignment level of the PC BEFORE he began the quest cycle. A single line could be added to the OnClientEnter event for the mod, that would look for that variable on a given PC upon login, and if a value is found then the PC's alignment is instantly set to that value and the variable is cleared. This would prevent exploitation, as you would NOT be able to keep whatever alignment you wanted by stopping the quest cycle artificially.

A Confounder-to-be would be expected to abide by the rules and regulations of the death plane they are in. You want out? You do what it takes to get out. That is part of the lesson being taught.

You would need the "questgiver" to store another local variable on the PC, that would act as a counter, of sorts, for the purposes of making sure the PC cycled through ALL the planes. That would take me a few days to write, I think. Lotsa logic hoops to jump through.

As for the actual quest, no worries, I have ya covered. It won't involve traveling to the death planes, though. Sorry. Dont worry though, I have a soft spot in my heart for Forian's folks, and will seek to make it up to them. I know they have to deal with the crappiest death plane of them all, so I'll see if I can't make the PrC quest fun enough to counterbalance that. Err... did I say "quest"? I meant "quests".

So? other ideas for your pre-quest quest? I was thinking of something more akin to requiring the person to spend 2 hours fishing in Ferrell, wearing something ridiculous like one of those Dominatrix outfits, and then going to, say, Mikona (still dressed the same, naturally) to sell whatever you caught FOR NO LESS THAN 1000 GOLD. If you caught nothing, then you?d fucking well find a way to go sell nothing for 1000 gold. If it?s a fish or a sandal, well then, there you are. Anyhow, were that part in my hands (which we can all be thankful it is not), I might suggest something like that. Your fish? errr? your requirements are your own though.

Can I get back to you? I'd love to think of some stuff more seriously (it's just been a "someday" project for me up to now), and get some ideas from the other Freaky Forianites out there. I'm pretty certain that no one is in close proximity to the requirements for playing a Confounder right now anyways, and I'd be happy for the Confounder quest to get pushed back until everyone's really happy with it. I'm sure there are lots of other Holy Warriors In Training out there who'd love for their class to come first. *laughs*

Also, what are your feelings on using the SetDeity() event in conjunction with the Confounder quest?

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - DISCLAIMER: Actually's scripting knowledge is the equivalent of a thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters. Your onscreen results may differ drastically.

Yeah, no hurries. I have a lot to do, and this won't be ready for a month or more, what with the HotU code freeze and all the shuffling around that will accompany that.

It probably makes more sense to check the deity field, rather than setting it as part of the quest. That is to say, people who already have Forian in their deity field shouldn't be prevented from completing the quest, while those who lack the proper deity field entry should acquire it before or during the quest.

- Aloro

[Abdul_Caffeine]

I disagree.

Surely being told to do something, anything, by anyone less than Forian his bad self runs counter to everything that Forianism stands for? I mean, it's supposed to be an ethos of Do As Thou Wilt.

The influences of Grant Morrisson and Malaclypse the Younger seem to be falling over this project already. I can see why; they're massively entertaining and sound vaguely right. But, from where I'm standing, they're doctrinally different from Forianism.

Discordianism has tenets. Never eat a hotdog bun, except on Fridays when you must. Always use the official Eristic calendar. Obey the Law of Fives. Similarly, the Chaos Magic / Gnostic / Catharist / Buddhist melange that Morrisson used in The Invisibles has tenets. Good, evil and balance exist, although their contents vary.

This isn't Forianism. True Forianism only has the one tenet: do exactly what you like, when you like. Why should a potential Confounder go and fish and then sell the fish for a thousand gold? Surely a real Forianite would go and fish, and then halfway through, realise that, "I don't want to do this any more", and then go and do something else, like breaking into a nearby house, opening up a locked chest full of valuables, putting the fishing rod into it, and then leaving without taking anything. Any quest, no matter how bizarre or Pythonesque, is still a quest.

Hence the Crowley reference; he gives us a very good example of what can happen when people go around honestly believing that. I mean, when the 'OnHeartBeat: GetDesire() ObeyDesire()' ethos is interpreted in a fundamentalist way, then you'll get everything from Ayn Rand to Charles Manson to the Marquis de Sade.

I'd also like to suggest V for Victory as subject material. It's damn good, but it also portrays the whole Lawful/Chaotic struggle which is important here.

------

The above is OOC, written based on what I read from the canon which exists on this site. What follows is what I've developed while playing Aleksandros, the wandering priest who believes that Forian speaks to him. This is his personal view on the religion, and as such it should be taken with as much salt as needed. Or more. Or less. In fact, salt it as much as you like.

Forianism is an intensely personal religion. While Mikonites might receive the scripture from their priesthood, a Forianite receives it from within. Forian isn't a god with an agenda or a plan. Forianites don't need to do anything in his name. He doesn't need to win anything or have anyone smitten, or have confusion spread for him. Forian knows that victory consists only of doing what you were going to do when you'd won.

In other words, it's a faith of daisy chains and bloody massacres. When you want to pray, pray. When you want to sleep, sleep. When you want to wade in the gore of the guilty (or the innocent), do so. Live hand to mouth or in luxury, as the mood takes you, but never force yourself to do anything today because of what it means for tomorrow.

In a way similar to the Discordian tenet of 'You Are The Pope' and Heinlein's refrain of 'Thou Art God', and even Luther's doctrine of personal communion, Forianism rests upon a personal dialogue between the believer and the deity. There cannot be a priesthood or any other intermediaries. Forian speaks to each. All a cleric of Forian can do is to teach people to listen.

If Confounders exist, then they won't be an organisation where you get membership by doing something silly. Rather, Forian's true disciples will be the ones who say, "meh, I'd rather sit here in the grass and laugh" or "meh, I'd rather go and slaughter these bandits", depending on what they actually want to do at that moment.

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Anyway. Back OOC now. If you read all of that, I'm impressed. If you disagree, well, Do As Thou Wilt.

- Abdul

[Aloro]

I disagree.

Surely being told to do something, anything, by anyone less than Forian his bad self runs counter to everything that Forianism stands for? I mean, it's supposed to be an ethos of Do As Thou Wilt.

You're forgetting one simple fact: lots of people LIKE to be told what to do. So for them, Do As Thou Wilt might mean letting someone else make some decisions for them. That's of course not necessary, and probably not common, but I don't see how it's out of line with Forianism. Forian doesn't require people to become enlightened, after all. Moreover (and more importantly) Forian probably works against his own ends sometimes, in a vast muddle of confusion and illusion.

The influences of Grant Morrisson and Malaclypse the Younger seem to be falling over this project already. I can see why; they're massively entertaining and sound vaguely right. But, from where I'm standing, they're doctrinally different from Forianism.

As I said above, just because I like these influences doesn't actually mean they'll BE influences on the project. And I do not agree that any of the above listed influences are doctrinally different from Forianism.

Discordianism has tenets. Never eat a hotdog bun, except on Fridays when you must. Always use the official Eristic calendar. Obey the Law of Fives. Similarly, the Chaos Magic / Gnostic / Catharist / Buddhist melange that Morrisson used in The Invisibles has tenets. Good, evil and balance exist, although their contents vary.

Discordianism has no tenets. You will note that it is almost impossible to get two Discordians to agree about anything at all. Yes, some say hot dog buns are Bad, but others think they are Good, while many have no strong opinion. Likewise, there is no requirement to use the calendar, or to pay attention to the various laws and correspondences. Hells, the P.D. itself is massively self-contradictory, not unlike the Chuch of the Subgenius. The main teaching in my eyes can be summed up in two points: 1) Don't take anything too seriously, 2) Have some fun with it, and 3) There are only two points.

The Invisibles also have no tenets as a group. Hells, they're on both sides of their little private war, or all sides, as there are at times more than 4 different factions in their surreal struggle. Now, perhaps they do have tenets, from a Gnostic point of view (i.e. free yourself from the prison of the mind), but they don't agree on any means or methods, nor do their end views agree. Maybe it would be more accurate to say the only thing they share is an attitude.

This isn't Forianism. True Forianism only has the one tenet: do exactly what you like, when you like. Why should a potential Confounder go and fish and then sell the fish for a thousand gold? Surely a real Forianite would go and fish, and then halfway through, realise that, "I don't want to do this any more", and then go and do something else, like breaking into a nearby house, opening up a locked chest full of valuables, putting the fishing rod into it, and then leaving without taking anything. Any quest, no matter how bizarre or Pythonesque, is still a quest.

Right. But one of the wonderful things about Chaos is that it can often contradict itself freely. So while I agree completely that in general any set patterns and rules should be avoided, I also think it is perfectly in Forian's spirit to say, "Never let anyone tell you what to do. You have to ALWAYS think for yourself. Now go get me a fish, or you can't be a Confounder".

Hence the Crowley reference; he gives us a very good example of what can happen when people go around honestly believing that. I mean, when the 'OnHeartBeat: GetDesire() ObeyDesire()' ethos is interpreted in a fundamentalist way, then you'll get everything from Ayn Rand to Charles Manson to the Marquis de Sade.

I don't think Aleister is a good example of Chaotic Neutral thinking, honestly. He's more TN, in my eyes.

I'd also like to suggest V for Victory as subject material. It's damn good, but it also portrays the whole Lawful/Chaotic struggle which is important here.

I haven't read it yet, but have been meaning to. Alan Moore, right?

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The above is OOC, written based on what I read from the canon which exists on this site. What follows is what I've developed while playing Aleksandros, the wandering priest who believes that Forian speaks to him. This is his personal view on the religion, and as such it should be taken with as much salt as needed. Or more. Or less. In fact, salt it as much as you like.

I like fish!

And of course it's OOC; this is an OOC forum. Well, that might be a good reason for a Forianite to speak IC, come to think of it.

Forianism is an intensely personal religion. While Mikonites might receive the scripture from their priesthood, a Forianite receives it from within. Forian isn't a god with an agenda or a plan. Forianites don't need to do anything in his name. He doesn't need to win anything or have anyone smitten, or have confusion spread for him. Forian knows that victory consists only of doing what you were going to do when you'd won.

Ahhhh. Yes, I completely agree. In a perfect world, there would be absolutely no preset quests for Forian. You're entirely right. However, we have to work within certain limitations, and one of those is this: quests for PrCs are scripted, not DM-driven. Now, I'll do what I can to retain some randomness, but there will of necessity be a certain amount of structure in the Confounder quests. Having said that, there's nothing wrong with having a bit of structure every now and then - Forianites can be perfectly law-abiding, orderly, organized people, at least for a few minutes at a time.

In other words, it's a faith of daisy chains and bloody massacres. When you want to pray, pray. When you want to sleep, sleep. When you want to wade in the gore of the guilty (or the innocent), do so. Live hand to mouth or in luxury, as the mood takes you, but never force yourself to do anything today because of what it means for tomorrow.

When you are hungry, eat.

What you are tired, sleep.

When you are enlightened, keep it down. The rest of us are eating and sleeping here.

In a way similar to the Discordian tenet of 'You Are The Pope' and Heinlein's refrain of 'Thou Art God', and even Luther's doctrine of personal communion, Forianism rests upon a personal dialogue between the believer and the deity. There cannot be a priesthood or any other intermediaries. Forian speaks to each. All a cleric of Forian can do is to teach people to listen.

100% right. Forian enlightenment comes from within. But so does Zen enlightenment, and yet Zen is characteristically a master-student practice. Priests have their place in such a religion, never doubt it. Give 'em koans to chew on, and smack 'em when they need it.

If Confounders exist, then they won't be an organisation where you get membership by doing something silly. Rather, Forian's true disciples will be the ones who say, "meh, I'd rather sit here in the grass and laugh" or "meh, I'd rather go and slaughter these bandits", depending on what they actually want to do at that moment.

That seems unnecessarily restrictive.

Anyway. Back OOC now. If you read all of that, I'm impressed. If you disagree, well, Do As Thou Wilt.

- Abdul

I always do.

- Aloro

[Actually]

I disagree.

Surely being told to do something, anything, by anyone less than Forian his bad self runs counter to everything that Forianism stands for? I mean, it's supposed to be an ethos of Do As Thou Wilt.

I see your point, but I caution you to avoid pushing self-determination into the realm of simple contrariness. A Forianite is no more, or less, opposed to taking direction from someone else than they are to anything else. If the shoe fits, tie that motherfucker on and walk down to the liquor store.

Also, my intent for the Confounder quest is that it not be anything near an "Ordained Directive" or any such thing. Nobody's TELLING any Forianite what to do. I want to devise a cycle of quests that will be like, "well, if you want to be a Confounder these things simply have to occur. So, you wanna be a Confounder or not?"

The influences of Grant Morrisson and Malaclypse the Younger seem to be falling over this project already. I can see why; they're massively entertaining and sound vaguely right. But, from where I'm standing, they're doctrinally different from Forianism.

Discordianism has tenets. Never eat a hotdog bun, except on Fridays when you must. Always use the official Eristic calendar. Obey the Law of Fives. Similarly, the Chaos Magic / Gnostic / Catharist / Buddhist melange that Morrisson used in The Invisibles has tenets. Good, evil and balance exist, although their contents vary.

Seriously, I can't begin to tell you how many times in the past 10 years I have gotten into all-caps screaming matches with people because I had the audacity to profess a Discordian outlook, but then dared to refuse to adhere to ONE PERSON'S set of Discordian tenets. Dipshittery is not the sovereign province of one religion over another. I'd like to think, in my secret heart, that Robert Wilson would punch somebody right in their jaw if he heard 'em snark off something about, "well, you CAN'T be a Discordian unless you do X, Y, and Z." Those people really need to re-read the Schroedinger's Cat cycle, 'cause they ain't getting the point. There is NO OBJECTIVE DIFFERENCE between the E.L.F., the Discordians, the JLA, and the Illuminati, because THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OBJECTIVISM.

How anyone could read a story in which the leader of BOTH the "good" guys and the "bad" guys was the same person and not get the point that doctrine is valueless and artificial, with no bearing on direct experience (gnosis, if you will), is beyond me. No, scratch that, it's not beyond me. It's a bunch of people who can't open their minds far enough to grasp the concept, so they do the best they can which is fixate on the doctrine. Which ain't directed at you, Abdul. It's old wounds from old flame wars, yeah?

And as for Grant Morrison, remember that KING MOB had tenets, but they were tenets of his own choosing, and the people who surrounded and supported him did so for their own reasons. Remember when Boy steals the Hand, and takes off for Seattle? Remember the conversation she has with the member of Cell 23 who picks her up? There are only enemies because there are people fighting them.

This isn't Forianism. True Forianism only has the one tenet: do exactly what you like, when you like. Why should a potential Confounder go and fish and then sell the fish for a thousand gold? Surely a real Forianite would go and fish, and then halfway through, realise that, "I don't want to do this any more", and then go and do something else, like breaking into a nearby house, opening up a locked chest full of valuables, putting the fishing rod into it, and then leaving without taking anything. Any quest, no matter how bizarre or Pythonesque, is still a quest.

FORIAN has only one tenet. Mortals do their best to approximate his Divine Unpredictability. Short of the DM's just randomly turning one out of every five hundred PC's into Confounders, a scripted quest will have to happen. Nothing else will work, that I see. Although if you have other ideas, then itemize 'em man. Everybody gets equal say here.

Hence the Crowley reference; he gives us a very good example of what can happen when people go around honestly believing that. I mean, when the 'OnHeartBeat: GetDesire() ObeyDesire()' ethos is interpreted in a fundamentalist way, then you'll get everything from Ayn Rand to Charles Manson to the Marquis de Sade.

Good of you to mention de Sade, 'cause that brings us back to the Invisibles. de Sade openly espoused the dehumanization of weaker people, and tyrannical control of any who you CAN control. Yet King Mob and his cell save him from death and bring him to the future so he can BETTER concretize his theories. Personal empowerment for EVERYONE. Law and Chaos get equal billing.

Actually, the panoply of existence of Avlis, rife with Lawful and Chaotic influences, is a great proof that Forian is really running the show. Both Gorethar AND Maleki have equal power. Unfortunately for Forian, currently that equality is ensured by Mikon. IMO, Forian would believe that even WITHOUT Mikon, things would go the same way they do now. But, you know, Mikon's gotta be Mikon, and all.

Forianism is an intensely personal religion. While Mikonites might receive the scripture from their priesthood, a Forianite receives it from within. Forian isn't a god with an agenda or a plan. Forianites don't need to do anything in his name. He doesn't need to win anything or have anyone smitten, or have confusion spread for him. Forian knows that victory consists only of doing what you were going to do when you'd won.

In other words, it's a faith of daisy chains and bloody massacres. When you want to pray, pray. When you want to sleep, sleep. When you want to wade in the gore of the guilty (or the innocent), do so. Live hand to mouth or in luxury, as the mood takes you, but never force yourself to do anything today because of what it means for tomorrow.

In a way similar to the Discordian tenet of 'You Are The Pope' and Heinlein's refrain of 'Thou Art God', and even Luther's doctrine of personal communion, Forianism rests upon a personal dialogue between the believer and the deity. There cannot be a priesthood or any other intermediaries. Forian speaks to each. All a cleric of Forian can do is to teach people to listen.

If Confounders exist, then they won't be an organisation where you get membership by doing something silly. Rather, Forian's true disciples will be the ones who say, "meh, I'd rather sit here in the grass and laugh" or "meh, I'd rather go and slaughter these bandits", depending on what they actually want to do at that moment.

A fine interpretation. You fall, as do we all, well within the "some people think... Others think..." statements made by Orleron about Confounders in the Holy Warriors section of the main board. But remember, in the end a PW is a blend of DM involvement and pre-scripted NPC encounters. I just don't see a way, short of me applying for the team as the DM for Forian and wandering around ingame CONSTANTLY randomly making people Confounders, for it to work without some sort of organization. Which is why I'm doing my damndest to make it as DISorganized, and equilateral, and mutually validating, as possible.

And don't forget, there are pre-requisites for being a Confounder that have nothing to do with anything we might or might not script. So, right out of the gate there are things you MUST do to be a Confounder. Such is the will o' the mighty Orleron.

Bye Now,
Jerry Cornelius - Won't be able to take Martial Weapons and the Flail focus for EASILY another six levels.